Insects Don't Swarm at LED Lights

(birdsoutsidemywindow.org)

65 points | by speckx 1 hour ago

9 comments

  • Animats 43 minutes ago
    Yes, you need some ultraviolet to attract insects. That's why bug-zappers have near UV lamps. They're usually compact fluorescent bulbs. Some ads say 365nm is the right color.
  • theandrewbailey 21 minutes ago
    Maybe this helps answer the question of 'where did the bugs go', because windshields aren't as full of them today compared to 20-30 years ago.
    • cbg0 14 minutes ago
      The answer to that is pesticides. There's still plenty of insects ready to smash into your windshield in many parts of the world.
      • arcfour 12 minutes ago
        Pesticides weren't in use 20-30 years ago? Wouldn't more dangerous pesticides have been in use then, too, compared to now?
        • roromainmain 8 minutes ago
          They have been used much more massively since the 80s, price decreased significantly.
    • baoooooooooooo 5 minutes ago
      wow this would be a neat twist if true - we all defaulted to the negative explanation of having killed them all where a much more positive explanation might be that we're no longer luring them to their deaths at the leading edge of automobiles?

      I guess it is most likely some combination of the above, but if there's any evidence it would be a neat reframing

      • HelloMcFly 1 minute ago
        The mass insect-death on windshield issue was as much a daytime issue and nighttime one.
  • gopalv 58 minutes ago
    My pet theory is that the dimmable LEDs repel insects (when used as a grow light).

    The thing that insects can see and we don't is the rapid flashing of a PWM power controller.

    I wonder if these streetlights have power saving fade-ins as the nightfall approaches instead of clicking on at sunset.

    Like - https://doi.org/10.1109/CSNT51715.2021.9509652

    • dlcarrier 23 minutes ago
      The streetlights in my neighborhood still have the round photo sensors on top, that have something like a watt of standby current for the sensor itself. I don't think they're trying hard to save powwer.
    • Velocifyer 49 minutes ago
      Don't forget about flicker free dimmable LEDs. I install them in my house.
    • adolph 43 minutes ago
      The article bluntly states: "Moonlight contains ultraviolet (UV) and infrared wavelengths because it is merely reflected sunlight. Insects cue on UV, believing it to be the moon. . . . Incandescent lights transmit UV but LEDs do not. Insects are far less attracted to LED."

      However, my mind developed a similar conjecture to your's: what if the common frequencies of PWM occur within a kinetic visual blindspot of insect vision, like human saccades [0] in the novel Blindsight [1], so that insects are not aware of the LED at all?

      0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10991/

      1. https://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm#:~:text=%22There...

  • okanat 1 hour ago
    Weird. My home has only LED bulbs. There are still moths and bees who get attracted to the light when I leave the window open.
    • hnlmorg 51 minutes ago
      I think it’s to do with the LED flicker. You can sometimes see it in your peripheral vision (ie your light/dark receptors) but your RGB cones aren’t as good at spotting it.

      Insects eyes are biologically very different.

      With LED lighting, if you have lots of spot lights in the ceiling and and open door, you’ll likely find that the light leaving the house is a bath of reflection from different sources inside the house and that likely cancels out the worst of the flicker.

    • Brian_K_White 55 minutes ago
      Install a single incandescent somewhere and be less mystified by the claim.

      They didn't say no bug ever goes to any led light.

    • aaron695 15 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • oakwhiz 57 minutes ago
    The study didn't cover high pressure sodium bulbs, the previously popular type in street lamps.
  • quirkot 1 hour ago
    I wonder how much of it is also the LED flicker. If I was a small bug and moving quickly with a high visual refresh rate, I would probably hate the experience of the LED flicker
    • worldsavior 56 minutes ago
      There is no such thing as refresh rate for any kind of eye.
      • throwaway219450 38 minutes ago
        There are odd visual illusions though, like humans perceive the Wagon-Wheel Effect even though there's no obvious reason it should happen. This is the effect where the speed of a rotating object varies depending on its sync with a discrete exposure period.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon-wheel_effect

        https://research.tue.nl/en/publications/subjective-strobosco...

        • qqewqe123 11 minutes ago
          You mention it yourself, these illusions only occur with "discrete exposure periods". This is moreso related to video recordings and less about how the eye sees actual physical objects. Such illusions do NOT occur with natural light.
      • stevenwoo 18 minutes ago
        I highly recommend the pop science book An Immense World by Ed Yong to disabuse you of this notion. There is a sort of refresh rate (not exactly the same but good metaphor) for everything at every level of living being we study. It gives enough information for you to read the actual studied should you have more questions after reading it.
      • jschveibinz 45 minutes ago
        But there is a neurological component in "optical processing" that can be modeled as a discrete rate of update although the underlying physiology is still being investigated.
      • quirkot 48 minutes ago
        Yeah, i know that's how the physics works, but effectively my computer monitor doesn't flicker for me but a strobe light does. Whatever the proper term for that is what I'm talking aobut
      • nine_k 44 minutes ago
        There is for the visual cortex though.

        Try walking outside in a clear night. Look up, notice some stars, or aircraft lights. Now rotate in place, and see how low your vision's FPS is in the dark: the rotation will be visibility jumpy.

        An insect, with its much simpler visual processing, and facing a bright light, will likely achieve a much higher FPS, sufficient for the sub-kilohertz flicker to be very visible.

        • inexcf 22 minutes ago
          For a game i tried to model the behavior of our eyes in the dark and read up on a lot of that stuff. Not once was there a suggestion of jumpy vision. And that is also not my experience. In low light things begin to smudge, lots of ghosting the further in the periphery of your view they move in.
        • IanCal 29 minutes ago
          Are you thinking about saccades? I don’t think I’ve ever seen what you’re talking about with non-flickering sources.
      • smallmancontrov 50 minutes ago
        Nyquist had something to say about that.
  • Xcelerate 48 minutes ago
    I wonder if it’s only the UV that makes a difference. I have some Yuji SunWave bulbs (and the NIR versions). Would be interesting to test those at night against normal LED bulbs and incandescent.
  • ChrisMarshallNY 57 minutes ago
    I have noticed that. We have LED porch lights, and never see the usual moths and whatnot.
  • unpleasurable 55 minutes ago
    Do flames emit UV?
    • officeplant 17 minutes ago
      Yes, but how much UV depends on what's burnin / how hot its burning. Otherwise they mostly put out IR.

      We use UV/IR combo Flame detectors at work for this purpose.

    • devindotcom 18 minutes ago
      a little but not much, from my quick look online.
    • aaomidi 48 minutes ago
      No but they emit smoke