The internet discovers TLA+. Now what?

(reasonable.io)

55 points | by matt_d 8 hours ago

16 comments

  • lopatin 3 minutes ago
    I would encourage everyone to try this on some self-contained, state-machine like problems, if they have them. At my company, some experts were optimizing our clustering and failover logic by adding a bit more state (and hence complexity). Despite me not being an expert in that area, I was able to find and prevent a catastrophic bug by pointing Opus armed with TLA+ at the problem. It was a bug that was not possible in the prior implementation of the system and no one thought to write unit tests for the sequence of steps that triggers it, so initially went unnoticed. The only thing that caught it was the TLA+ invariants, which, yes, were written by Opus as well.
  • stevefan1999 2 hours ago
    I indirectly use TLA+ through https://github.com/quint-co/quint. I added instructions that "before you implement any feature, please use Quint to model it and make sure no counterexample for the system as a whole, reiterate the design with Quint as well and make sure your documents and implementation follows the formal model and docs".

    The result, while takes much longer, is quite magical. A lot of transaction and atomic bugs were found and fixed just by having such simple instruction alone.

    However, sometimes it is not all magical especially around external resources. Cloudflare, unfortunately, sometimes have hiccups on D1 and KV with timeout, which is more or less a force majeure.

    Fortunately, that means I will have to model the action as a binary event, that the transaction may not complete as we would have thought guaranteed, and by add extra guard around it, so that the state would have to be retried.

    I was able to workaround it like that so far. Keep in mind the more conditions and constraints, the beefier your CPU might need since it is on the scale of NP

  • listless 34 minutes ago
    I can’t understand any of this. It’s saying everything and nothing at the same time. Whatever TLA+ is this article makes it sound like the most tedious and academic thing ever.
    • mrkeen 8 minutes ago
      * You define initial states and all possible state transitions.

      * It will brute force all states.

      * You can add a variety of assertions.

    • dboreham 2 minutes ago
      Here's my regular engineer explanation:

      TLA+ is a specific kind of formal verification framework for software. The overall idea is that you can "prove" that some software works, rather than the typical "seems like it works" we aim for.

      But under the covers, all formal verification schemes are (imho) best viewed as "very fancy testing". There are a few kinds of this fancy testing. TLA+ is the kind that can auto-generate all the relevant test cases for your code (there's more to it than that, but this definition works for now). So now instead of "I wrote a bunch of test cases, all that I could think of, and they pass" you have "I used TLA+ so I know I'm exercising all the possible test cases and they pass".

      Here's the problem though: to achieve that trick, you have to write your code in a special language (TLA+). It isn't a tool that can be just pointed at regular production code.

      So what you get to "prove" is a translation of your actual code into TLA+ code. It may be possible to auto-translate one to the other (I asked the original author if they did that, but no reply yet). Usually it's a manual process. Therefore you have "proof" but not quite as you know it, because you proved something different than what runs. But still more useful than a wet finger raised into the wind.

      For this reason it's typically only used on narrow risky pieces of code (quorum voting is the canonical use case).

  • bsenftner 2 hours ago
    Took 10 minutes to find this: TLA+ is a formal specification language developed to design, model, document, and verify reactive systems.
    • noosphr 2 hours ago
      TLA+ is what unit testing looks like when a mathematician designs it.
    • mkl 27 minutes ago
      It takes about 5 seconds to open Wikipedia and type "TLA+".
  • stroebs 1 hour ago
    17 mentions of “TLA+” before defining the acronym.
    • brookst 34 minutes ago
      Which is ironic and funny given the other common use of those letters.
  • peterus 3 hours ago
    Real world applications of TLA+: https://foundation.tlapl.us/industry/index.html.

    The Intel paper shows how TLA+ was applied as a step prior to writing the hardware description. I'm not sure if it caught on, it seems like other tools are used nowdays, does anyone here in the VLSI industry know?

  • jan_m_savage 12 minutes ago
    If the article's author's writing is this bad, imagine how they write software... shudder.
  • baq 32 minutes ago
    the secret's out, but I think I'm still in a minority which has alloy models in addition to TLA+ ones
  • torutofu 53 minutes ago
    the jump from reading examples to writing a useful invariant is still the hard part
  • lisp2240 3 hours ago
    Take a writing class. This was painful to read.
    • rsrsrs86 1 hour ago
      Yep. Unreadable
    • pelagicAustral 2 hours ago
      Hahaha this is so funny... people here get slammed all the time of using AI for writing and here be, just someone writing his way through Internet history and gets slammed for it just the same... you can't hardly win with an audience like this... haha
      • cryptonym 2 hours ago
        You can be bad at writing with or without AI.
      • pona-a 20 minutes ago
        If the author threw this into Claude to add some load-bearing similes to their unedited monologue, it would only make it more insufferable to anyone complaining about it now.
  • scrubs 3 hours ago
  • alexnewman 38 minutes ago
    I did a lot of distsys work With tla+. I still think it’s the best use. It’s really hard to make sure your code matches what you prove.
  • fizlebit 5 hours ago
    Time to discover communicating sequential processes instead :P
    • usrnm 4 hours ago
      That stuff gets rediscovered all the time, the latest example probably being golang
    • Yoric 3 hours ago
      Nah, jump straight to pi-calculus.
    • miranaproarrow 4 hours ago
      wait this is new to me so is this like a different kind of tla?
      • als0 3 hours ago
        I've always thought CSP as a robust design pattern where you have no shared state between components and they must communicate with each other using message passing. It also requires synchronous communication (rendezvous-style). If you follow those rules you can have a pretty robust system. Aside from these abstract rules, CSP has more formal research (algebra) but I'm not sure if there are any decent tools available.

        TLA gives you a full toolbox and in theory can model whatever you can express. That's very different from a design pattern.

    • azaras 4 hours ago
      I am learning TLA+ but I do not know CSP, is CSP better?
  • typesafeJ 1 hour ago
    The header is buggy.
  • capl 59 minutes ago
    most annoying post I've read
  • Marbleferry815 5 hours ago
    [dead]