11 comments

  • fsiefken 0 minutes ago
    This happened to me last month in Halifax Canada, I wanted to board a transfer flight to Amsterdam, going through Boston. I was stopped as I had salts with me from a buddhist relic I couldn't exactly identify. The machine said it contained a primary explosive (silver azide). I was ordered to give my access code to my iphone and 3 suspicious screenshots were found I made 2 years ago about the Iran/Israel war. I said I'm interested in geo-politics and watched the news. I was barred from the US for life - it was said that it could have been much worse. When I wanted to go to the main airport hall a number of canadian police officers arrested me and drove me handcuffed to a cell. I was asked if I wanted a lawyer and they arranged a phone call. The lawyer said I would spend to nights in a cell and then she would come to prepare my case and was strongly advised not to talk to people before that. I was released from my cell 7 hours later that evening after a thorough and friendly conversation with the canadian special police. I can understand that security don't want to take any chances with people carrying supposed explosive powders on an airport, so the system was doing it's protective job. That day there was a threat alert I heard later.
  • mmh0000 1 hour ago
    It is insane to me that judges consistently rule that the constitution doesn't apply because there's a "border" within 100 miles.

    The 4th Amendment says, exactly:

       The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    
    I do not know how that could be unclear. My cellphone is my effect, and arguably, also a "paper". Which SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED. But apparently, I'm too dumb to understand the sentence[1].

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United...

    • rtkwe 34 minutes ago
      So the main argument is that in the time that was written and immediately afterwards we can look to see what they mean by that by how it was implemented. At the time it was understood that the government could and would search goods as they enter the country without warrants to enforce things like tariffs. I think that's a fairly reasonable interpretation of the meaning. Where I think this goes wrong (and maybe deviates from history?) is the conflation of papers and other digital records now with physical goods, historically were people's papers searched as they entered the country (beyond say looking through them to find hidden goods, I mean reading and examining letters and records)?
      • alistairSH 14 minutes ago
        But the 100 mile rule? That covers damn near everybody in the US (>200 million, or 66%, give or take) subject to warrantless searches on the whim of whatever the police want?
        • SoftTalker 4 minutes ago
          It's more than that, it's being "close" to a border (you can argue if 100 miles is "close") and not on a whim but reason to believe you recently crossed it.
        • EGreg 6 minutes ago
          Yeah, where does this come from? Who keeps defending this, has it been challenged?

          About 213 million people live in this zone, so 2/3 of people in the USA. So I guess the 4th amendment doesn't actually apply to most US citizens?

    • flerchin 28 minutes ago
      Yeah the plain language is unambiguous. That there is an historical border search exception simply doesn't matter to me. We fought a war for this, and it's bullshit.
    • esafak 52 minutes ago
  • petcat 1 hour ago
    Customs has always been able to search everything without a warrant or suspicion when crossing the border. I guess this is saying that they can search the digital contents of physical devices/media as well?
    • wrs 1 hour ago
      It says they can manually search them. According to this, the ruling explicitly doesn’t say if they can digitally search them.
      • inopinatus 1 hour ago
        digitally also means “using the fingers”, so never consent to a digital search without prior clarification
  • ramesh31 1 hour ago
    The best time to delete all social media accounts and never post anything online with your name attached ever again was 10 years ago. The second best time is right now. This stuff can and will be used against you out of context 10, 20, 30 years into the future.
  • 0xbadcafebee 1 hour ago
    The problem with these laws isn't that they can search you at the border. It's that they can search you within 100 miles of the border (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception). The total number of people who live within that zone is 213 Million people, or 2/3 of the total population (https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone).
  • righthand 1 hour ago
    So carry a separate device while traveling. Or wipe your phone, then restore after the border. This is just going to lead to a service that does this for you and the overreaching feds won’t be able to do anything about it.

    And as far as I can tell you still don’t have to give them your pin code.

    • peezd 51 minutes ago
      It's been somewhat established that having a wiped or basic phone is in itself sus and reason for them to investigate you further.
      • iamnothere 29 minutes ago
        They can investigate all they want, they can even detain you briefly, but if you are a citizen and there’s no evidence of a crime then they have to let you in.
      • puppycodes 25 minutes ago
        Have not heard this, whats your source? I don't see how they could determine that because "its a new phone" is hard to dispute.

        best case scenario is that a higher court overturns this but not holding my breath.

    • autoexec 1 hour ago
      They don't need your pin, they can just hack the phone take all your data anyway. ICE has a contract with Cellebrite
      • puppycodes 1 hour ago
        Not really. Cellebrite isn't magic. If you have an up to date OS and a strong password not pin, encryption functions as it should. The best thing to do is simply have a travel phone.
    • prettyblocks 1 hour ago
      the worry is that this will be interpreted as tampering and cary consequences.
      • iamnothere 28 minutes ago
        This would not be tampering, because you haven’t tampered with anything. The “evidence” is simply at home.
        • SoftTalker 2 minutes ago
          The law isn't a computer program. Intent matters.
  • gigel82 50 minutes ago
    This is confusing; what happens to you if you refuse a warantless search of your property?

    I'm a US citizen returning home. Do they just... send me back out of the country? :) I don't suppose they'd have the grounds to arrest me since there is no law that I can see being broken. I suppose they could keep the device until such time that a warrant could be obtained to digitally search / break into the device (but that requires some reasonable suspicion - simply refusing a warantless search isn't it).

    • boldlybold 37 minutes ago
      They let you in and keep your property. I've never had an issue at a border, but I still keep my devices encrypted and powered off when crossing.
    • rtkwe 32 minutes ago
      As a citizen they cannot block you from returning to the country. What they can do however is seize your devices (and briefly your person) and other property.
    • aDyslecticCrow 34 minutes ago
      They can put you in custody.
    • crooked-v 36 minutes ago
      They detain you, probably take and keep your stuff, and within a relatively short amount of time release you.

      Well, they probably release you. If you're brown or just dealing with the wrong people they may unlawfully beat, kidnap, and exile you anyway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportations_of_U.S._citizens_...).

      • sublinear 15 minutes ago
        You do realize that a lot of US citizens who have been living along the border for many generations cross all the time, and that they're "brown" right? They don't get beat down by anyone. In fact, many of the agents are also "brown" themselves.

        Leave skin color out of it.

        Contrary to popular belief, almost nobody on the US side in the southwest wants to immediately move to New York or Seattle.

  • andix 1 hour ago
    Anyone still crossing US borders with electronic devices that aren't fully wiped? This is company policy for some European companies for a long time. Even during the Biden administration.

    Most employees just receive a wiped phone/laptop for the duration of the trip. Depending on the country its either a device that only has access to the bare minimum of Services, or for countries like Russia they issue a dumb phone that can only call and text.

    • iamnothere 27 minutes ago
      Half of the commenters here seem to believe that nobody has ever done this successfully because it must be “suspicious”. Despite it being a common practice for many organizations.
      • andix 13 minutes ago
        It might be suspicious, but they don't get any incriminating evidence that way. It's also much easier for people visiting. Most of the time entry is denied and you can take the next plane back home. I'm fine with that, don't care. I only care if I would get taken into ICE detention. This risk grew significantly, so I simply won't go.
    • flerchin 25 minutes ago
      It's frankly insane that y'all have to do that, and yes Americans cross the border, perhaps haplessly.
      • andix 8 minutes ago
        Is there any difference between US citizens and visitors? It just seems like US citizens think those charades are normal and don't question them. In my home country I can just deny getting my devices searched. They might be allowed to seize and seal them, awaiting a court order for searching the device. Which I could appeal. Basically the same process as anywhere else in the country, international borders are not some special place that gives the police superpowers.

        Ps: we also don't have some special paramilitary border police. Just regular police stationed at the border.

  • 0xy 29 minutes ago
    It's a massive swing and a miss that GrapheneOS has a religious opposition to a VeraCrypt-style hidden volume arrangement that allows different passwords to unlock different OS volumes.

    It would be vastly superior to their current solution, which basically guarantees contempt charges.

    I hope they change their mind soon!

    • PaulKeeble 16 minutes ago
      The problem is it will be detectable and detected and then the password demanded and a failure to provide it will result in charges. I think unfortunately the answer is the phone has to be plausibly empty when crossing the US border, they should focus their efforts on being able to store the full state of the phone remotely and encrypted and being able to restore it easily.
    • UncleOxidant 19 minutes ago
      This. There should be a password that unlocks to a fairly minimal, but not too minimal configuration that wouldn't have anything of interest on it.
  • ksudb 36 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • tencentshill 1 hour ago
    And now you're extra suspicious if you don't have one at all