Laguna S 2.1

(poolside.ai)

382 points | by rexledesma 21 hours ago

34 comments

  • Lwerewolf 18 hours ago
    Testing it now. At the very least, competitive with DS4-Flash indeed. On my small (and per Sol's words, _very_ semantically dense) C test codebase, it found things that only gpt-5.2 managed to find back in the day, but also made a stupidly incorrect initial observation that a memfd_create()/mmap was used for IPC (funnily enough - sol missed that as well in its review, until I pointed it out). Re: the claims vs deepseek v4 - both flash and pro are expected to get a "general availability" release very soon (i.e. well-"post-trained"), so things can change in a... well, flash, as per usual in the current environment.

    Anyways, keep 'em coming.

    • ilc 18 hours ago
      What harness/quant did you use for testing?
      • Lwerewolf 18 hours ago
        nvfp4 mlx, literally barebones pi.

        edit: on bigger tests, got it to loop pretty easily unfortunately, probably local settings.

        • embedding-shape 16 hours ago
          > edit: on bigger tests, got it to loop pretty easily unfortunately, probably local settings.

          Been playing around for a few hours with the poolside/Laguna-S-2.1-NVFP4 + poolside/Laguna-S-2.1-DFlash-NVFP4 + vLLM, been seeing the same behaviour. Usually new model releases are plagued with issues at release though, best to wait 1-2 weeks then retry, or better yet, investigate yourself :) Personally I haven't found any obvious issues.

          • embedding-shape 6 hours ago
            Update: Seems quite literally they have bugs on the hardware I'm trying to run this with:

            From Poolside CEO Eiso Kant on Twitter:

            > Learning we have some bugs on the RTX6000. We’re on it. Team has worked non stop last days and it’s getting late for a lot of the inference folks, so might be until tomorrow till we have a solution. - https://x.com/eisokant/status/2079693050796785720

            Update2: I'm now running poolside/Laguna-S-2.1-NVFP4 with vLLM 0.23.1rc1.dev1378+gd6dbdb9b0 (FlashInfer 0.6.14) and seeing slightly better results in regards to the looping. I can't see any specific changes that would affect this though, strangely enough.

        • sosodev 17 hours ago
          What inference server are you using? They have a custom branch for llama.cpp, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it still needs fixing.
          • Lwerewolf 16 hours ago
            This: https://github.com/Blaizzy/mlx-lm/tree/pc/add-lg ...and this is what I should probably wait for (not sure why it's in vlm): https://github.com/Blaizzy/mlx-vlm/tree/pc/laguna-s-nvfp4 ...or perhaps I should've just used the gguf with the provided llama.cpp instead of trying to run the nvfp4-mlx from the get go, but where's the chaos in that :)

            Running deepseek flash on something locally now, this will have to wait a bit. I still stand by my initial quick assessment - looks capable. Some people on r/localllama also reported loops. We'll see in ~10 hours. Hopefully I haven't terribly mislead people.

  • mchusma 18 hours ago
    Incredible. This is definitely the launch of the day. Just crushing Google's releases.

    The pricing here is incredible. This is the first US release that's competitive with DeepSeek V4 Flash. Very excited about this.

  • river_otter 18 hours ago
    Hey, this model is not a joke! Exciting, we already got a usable PR of work out of it.

    https://github.com/mozilla-ai/otari/pull/348

  • mft_ 18 hours ago
    Looks impressive, and this size fits achievable home hardware.

    That said, if someone would kindly quantise this down for the 64GB paupers, that would be appreciated. (I know there’s likely degradation, but some people reported good results with a 2 bit version of Qwen 3.5 122B, and this is starting from a higher point. Would be interesting to try, at least.)

    Edit: someone in the process of doing so: https://huggingface.co/vcruz305/Laguna-S-2.1-GGUF

    • mft_ 49 minutes ago
      This is interesting: https://github.com/tanishq-dubey/macos-laguna-s2.1

      Someone has benchmarked a wide range of different quants.

    • Archit3ch 15 hours ago
      > if someone would kindly quantise this down for the 64GB paupers

      The Q4_K_M is 75GB. I'm exactly at 64GB, and I wouldn't quantize it further. Instead, do partial weight residency and stream the rest from SSD.

    • yogeshp 17 hours ago
      They have also published smaller 33B model called Laguna XS 2.1, its Q4 gguf is 20GB.

      https://huggingface.co/poolside/Laguna-XS-2.1-GGUF/tree/main

      • mft_ 17 hours ago
        Thanks for flagging. From the few benchmarks I can find, it looks there or thereabouts with Qwen 3.6-35B-A3B, or maybe a touch below. I'm interested to compare a model that is a big jump larger with pretty impressive benchmarks, but more heavily quantized to fit.
    • nunodonato 6 hours ago
      unsloth is always here to save the day https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Laguna-S-2.1-GGUF
      • andy99 5 hours ago
        Seems it’s not fully supported in mainline llama.cpp yet https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/pull/25165

        In the huggingface link they mention building for CPU and for CUDA, does anyone know if that means it wouldn’t be possible to build targeting Vulkan?

        • andy99 3 hours ago
          Replying to myself, seems this PR was merged into main and it the model does work with a Vulkan backend on my Framework desktop, I’m getting about 220 tok/s prompt processing and 21 tok/s output on the 4-bit quant. This is really a sweet spot imo on this machine between maximizing ram use and still having decent speed due to the expert size. This looks really promising.
          • regularfry 2 hours ago
            What's your hardware? I've got 64GB RAM and a 4090 here, wondering if it's worth a play.
            • andy99 2 hours ago
              It’s the Strix halo (AMD) with 128 GB shared memory. The 4bit quant is ~75GB.

              Unfortunately I don’t know about the best way of running on an Nvidia gpu, you could try llama.cpp and offloading as many layers as possible into the gpu and using RAM for the rest, not sure if that would slow it down too much though.

    • verdverm 18 hours ago
      The tool I've been using, llm-compressor, can quant models that do not fit in memory (use the sequential pipeline)

      https://github.com/vllm-project/llm-compressor

      my setup to help you on your way: https://github.com/verdverm/quantr

      Though it seems these will not be needed as Poolside has published quants & dflash with their models.

      • alfiedotwtf 6 hours ago
        Nice! Do you know of any tools that do this for tensorrt models?
  • kamranjon 18 hours ago
    Whoa whoa whoa, 118b params, 8b active MOE, long context reasoning, open weights - music to my ears. Hadn't heard of this lab before but I am very excited, will definitely try this out tomorrow - this is a real sweet spot I think in terms of model size and performance.
    • svclaws 18 hours ago
      If the numbers are legitimate then our prayers have been heard
  • SwellJoe 19 hours ago
    This is exactly the kind of model that's been needed in the middle. Realistically self-hosted, Good Enough intelligence, MoE so it's fast on limited bandwidth systems like Strix Halo and DGX Spark.

    For a while there's been nothing to run on my Strix Halo that's notably better than what I can run on my dual 32GB GPU desktop (Gemma 4 or Qwen 3.6 dense models), but this seems likely to be the step up in size that actually works better than those.

  • benjiro29 17 hours ago
    !! Be careful when testing the model.

    A lot of people are testing it, and reporting disappointed results / benchmaxxxing claim. But do not realize that thinking has a issue with the default configuration.

    Important - make sure that THINKING is enabled. By default it wasn't although I was passing the flag --default-chat-template-kwargs '{"enable_thinking": true}' in vllm recipe. The generation_config.json file that is included has by default max_new_tokens as 32k which seems to be cutting off thinking altogether so increase it. At first I was very disappointed with the output I was seeing, but once thinking is enabled, the code quality seems to be MUCH better. More real world testing to be done.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1v2pg99/laguna_...

    • d2p 7 hours ago
      Looks like the default chat template was updated on HF to enable this by default shortly after you posted this :-)
    • voxgen 16 hours ago
      Even the official provider on OpenRouter seems to have this issue. Hope it's an easy fix for them.
    • nshotton 16 hours ago
      Thanks for posting this, it made a huge difference tweaking the recipe.
  • aubanel 16 hours ago
    Really impressive signal that this 128B model can beat DeepSeek V4 (1.6T) on most coding benchmarks!

    Also, I really like Poolside's habit to compare not only to other top models in its weight class (others don't do it, looking at you Mistral), but also to the very top open-weight models, even much bigger ones like the 2.5T Kimi-K3!

  • mark_l_watson 2 hours ago
    For me, poolside.ai “came out of nowhere” a week or so ago when I discovered their local coding harness ‘pool’ and their smaller 33G MOE model that runs fast and is effective on my old 32G mac mini. Really good work!!

    I need to evaluate their large hosted model.

  • Iolaum 19 hours ago
    Model Looks amazing!

    Even more important, subjectively, is that this model will run very well on Strix Halo (e.g. Framework Desktop), DGX Spark kinds of devices. Looking forward to Unsloth dynamic mtp quants.

    P.S. Looking at the HF release they already offer Q4_K_M and DFlash drafter for speculative decoding!

    • verdverm 17 hours ago
      I hope all models going forward come with a dflash drafter so we don't have to train one up separately.
  • khurs 3 hours ago
    chat as listed on that page: https://chat.poolside.ai
  • river_otter 19 hours ago
    I love this. Is it possible to give a feel of how this stacks up to the good old Opus 4.5 in coding quality? For me that was the turning point where agentic coding in Claude Code etc became usable. Have we hit that threshold?
    • megavon 18 hours ago
      Having played with it for like 3 hours now....I'm probably moving from CC to this
      • river_otter 18 hours ago
        I am about 1 hour into using it with pi.dev. Do you have thinking on high? It is doing good but at one point i had to stop it and say 'you're overthinking this' haha
        • megavon 17 hours ago
          Yes full send mode on thinking. I have moved on from watching my agents and I don't really care how it thinks. I look at the end result and so far this thing has been blowing me away. No way this is as good as it is this small and fast. Outside Fable, this might be the best thing I've ever used.
        • kamranjon 18 hours ago
          What quant are you using?
      • fingerprinter 17 hours ago
        One hour in, no more Codex for me. This thing rips.
  • drob518 12 hours ago
    Immediate reaction is that it seems to be a bit behind Meta Muse Spark 1.1 performance at approximately the Deepseek v4 Flash price point. That's quite good given Muse Spark benchmarks a lot better than Deepseek v4 Flash (assuming benchmarks mean anything, which they don't).
  • samelldev 1 hour ago
    impressive benchmarks for the active params. i'll load it up and test
  • luciana1u 10 hours ago
    64GB RAM used to mean you could run three VMs and a database. now it means 'maybe the 120B model fits if I close everything else'
  • spelk 16 hours ago
    This is fantastic work, really impressive is an understatement. I really hope this sets a new DeepSeek-esque standard and starts another the death knell for companies continuing to cosplay as frontier labs (like Cohere).
  • megavon 19 hours ago
    This is INSANE. How did they do this?
    • eisokant 19 hours ago
      "What we've done in this model is not necessarily add more intelligence, but improve the behaviors that lead to a more capable model: more verification, less taking things for granted, not declaring victory early, and being more persistent.”

      +

      https://poolside.ai/assets/laguna/laguna-m1-xs2-technical-re...

      • Lwerewolf 18 hours ago
        Almost like a built-in heavyweight harness.
    • aitchnyu 6 hours ago
      Are all AI labs in Google's weight class in crawling and ranking the Web's content? I know OpenAI has contractor subject matter experts in all topics.
    • kamranjon 18 hours ago
      "It went from the start of training to launch in under nine weeks..."

      This is pretty impressive.

  • loolhahalmao 17 hours ago
    happy the US has some counterweights to the Chinese labs, just need about half a dozen more.
  • platinumrad 11 hours ago
    Does it refuse to work on "cyber"?
    • kouteiheika 4 hours ago
      It's an open-weight model so it literally doesn't matter whether it refuses by default or not, because it's pretty trivial to uncensor[1] any open-weight model and make it not refuse.

      [1]: https://github.com/p-e-w/heretic

  • resonious 9 hours ago
    How much does it cost? I even made an account and I cannot find pricing anywhere...
    • asar 6 hours ago
      In / Out Price

      $0,10 / $0,20per 1M

      from openrouter

  • tosh 20 hours ago
    open weights and

    similar performance to deepseek v4, inkling at size of nemotron 3 super (!)

  • iraldir 20 hours ago
    Amazing model at this size if true, that's quite crazy!
  • docheinestages 17 hours ago
    Any estimates of the performance (prompt processing and decoding tokens/s) on consumer hardware like Macbook Pro M-series?
  • axus 16 hours ago
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  • markasoftware 11 hours ago
    have only tested a few prompts, but it failed my favorite non-coding question that dsv4 flash aces. Benchmarks look excellent though (don't they always!)
  • polski-g 12 hours ago
    This thing is great, twice as fast as DS4Flash and slightly smarter too. I swapped most of my sub-agents to this model.
  • alfiedotwtf 6 hours ago
    Anyone know if this is supported in ik_llama.cpp?
  • _mrinalwadhwa_ 16 hours ago
    Has anyone tried it on a mac yet?
    • _mrinalwadhwa_ 11 hours ago
      Was able to run it on Apple M3 Max (128 GB)

      host: Apple M3 Max, 128 GB model: Laguna-S-2.1, 118B-A8B MoE, Q4_K_M (75 GB), DFlash speculative decoding server: http://127.0.0.1:8000, llama.cpp, ctx 64K, 8-bit KV cache

        mode: max thinking
         #  tokens   tok/s  dflash
         1     600    14.4     11%
         2     600    26.1     27%
         3     600    17.8     18%
         4     600    14.0     16%
         5     600     9.3     15%
        --------------------------------
        median  14.4   mean  16.3   min   9.3   max  26.1   tok/s
      
        mode: no thinking
         #  tokens   tok/s  dflash
         1     190    10.0     20%
         2     109    26.7     65%
         3      95    29.6     72%
         4      93    32.8     81%
         5     382    14.0     30%
        --------------------------------
        median  26.7   mean  22.6   min  10.0   max  32.8   tok/s
  • carimura 17 hours ago
    Congrats Poolside team!!
  • verdverm 13 hours ago
    initial impressions, great model for coding, probably swapping it out for qwen 27b for a while to long-term test, more sycophantic than any I've run locally myself
  • danr4 17 hours ago
    holy shit its accelerating fast
  • Archit3ch 15 hours ago
    [dead]
  • reindeer2 4 hours ago
    I've been following work on the second-order effects that ripple through the system for a while. This is the first treatment I've seen that the framing reveals an assumption that isn't explicitly defended.