12 comments

  • thenthenthen 7 hours ago
    There are many cheap shanzhai android phones with walkie talkie ptt functions (around 400MHz iirc) for about a decade. We tried to convince manufactures to open up the software stack to no avail, while being bullied at local hackerspaces (“this is illegal!”). I am licensed.
    • lxgr 3 hours ago
      It's mindblowing to me how modern cell phones have worse broadcast and P2P capabilities than what we had decades ago (when feature phones often featured FM receivers and could share photos via Bluetooth across manufacturers and OSes).

      Airdrop was the closest thing we had, and even that has been intentionally nerfed for non-contact senders.

      It's absurd that modern phones can talk to satellites hundreds of kilometers above, but not to other phones a few meters away in the same room, airplane cabin, train car etc.

      • wolvoleo 3 hours ago
        P2P capabilities aren't what the providers and governments want.

        The providers don't want it because they can't charge you for it. The governments don't like to see people communicate outside of their control. See how Apple caved to China making AirDrop no longer public and has followed suit in the rest of the world because other governments fear this capability too.

        • euroderf 33 minutes ago
          So, do phones in the "libre" genre have these features ?
  • HelloUsername 11 hours ago
    Previous discussion on 14-oct-2024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41818609 191 comments
  • wolvoleo 3 hours ago
    Nice!! I wish it could do DMR though. Analog isn't used to much anymore in these parts. Although to be more precise, HAM radio has declined a lot but DMR repeaters are linked in groups so it seems like there's a lot more activity.
  • s03nk3 12 hours ago
    Is it so difficult to have schematics and pcb exported as PDF so that people do not need to fire up KiCAD to view the stuff?
    • Retr0id 4 hours ago
      Or even a picture of the physical device! I found some on a linked sales listing: https://chelegance.com/products/kv4p-ht-plugplay-vhf-radio1-...
      • wolvoleo 1 hour ago
        Thanks! I was looking for that.

        I see they use those cheapo Chinese RF modules (SA818). I've seen those also with SDR input/output, that's interesting. The underlying chip is very similar: The chip that will be used in this module is the RDA1846. This is a chip that's in most Chinese handhelds and is internally fully SDR but it decodes to analog. There's also the RDA1847 with similar pinout which offers the raw SDR stream and can thus be used for any mode, but with the added complexity of having to do the SDR decoding externally.

        That means that this design could probably also be modified to do DMR. Though the SDR side might be a little bit too much to ask of an ESP32. On the other hand, it is only a very low bitrate signal.

    • mk_stjames 8 hours ago
      I encounter this problem as well when looking at projects on Github on a near daily basis it seems.

      It just led me to finding this:

      https://kicanvas.org/

      worth a bookmark.

    • oslem 2 hours ago
      Sounds like a great contribution you could make!
  • bdavbdav 12 hours ago
    I used to use SDR for DAB radio in the nexus 7 in the dash of my BMW E46. It didn’t work very well but was closer to being some kind of radio receiver (not trans at least)
  • landgenoot 12 hours ago
    > 1 watt transmit can go miles yet sips your phone’s battery

    How far can such a device reach in a typical urban environment with the longer antenna?

    • lxgr 11 hours ago
      VHF is effectively line-of-sight, and no antenna size can change that (although it does improve efficiency for both sending and receiving), so for two handheld radios, you are limited to about 10 km.

      The only thing that really helps extend the range is elevating the antenna, and repeaters allow you to do that even between two mobile stations.

      • giantg2 1 hour ago
        I think there's other phenomena that people might be interested in such as E-skip and tropospheric ducting. Although you cant really rely on those.
      • ac29 4 hours ago
        VHF doesnt need line of sight, it has excellent ability to penetrate obstructions due to its long wavelength. For example, its not difficult to receive FM radio transmissions indoors, even from tens of km away. Some obstacles will effectively block any radio signal though, such as solid earth or concrete (esp rebar reinforced concrete).

        You are right that handheld radios wont get more than about 10km, but that is due to the curvature of the earth. Mountain top to mountain top, you could easily do 50-100km

        • lxgr 4 hours ago
          That's what I meant by "effectively": Reflections, diffraction, and (moderate, i.e. think doors and windows, not walls) light obstacle penetration make some indoor reception possible, but the radio horizon remains the strong limiting factor.

          That's even true for the L- and S-band; otherwise you wouldn't be able to use a cell phone in a windowless room, for example. (Much of what's commonly attributed to "object penetration" is actually mostly due to reflections and diffraction around obstacles.)

    • souterrain 7 hours ago
      Practical use, dense urban, flat, UHF is about 1km. VHF is worse.

      Most radio amateurs would utilize a repeater to get over this limitation. Assuming there is a reliable repeater one is welcome to use nearby.

      • quietsegfault 5 hours ago
        In dense urban environments, VHF (~144 MHz) actually performs better than UHF (~446 MHz) for a few reasons... Lower frequencies diffract better around obstacles. VHF diffracts more readily around and over buildings than UHF. VHF penetrates building materials better than UHF — lower frequency = longer wavelength = better penetration through walls. UHF suffers from higher path loss over distance compared to VHF.
    • fodmap 11 hours ago
      You can extend the reach using repeaters. This free app is handy for that https://hearham.com/repeaters
  • RobotToaster 14 hours ago
    1w seems a little limited? A cheap baofeng is 8w.
    • Kaliboy 13 hours ago
      Those cheap baofeng's are illegal to use where I live on most of the spectrum they can operate on. Illegal to press the talk button anyway.

      So maybe the 1w is also a regulatory issue.

      • souterrain 6 hours ago
        In the US all transmitting at 1W with these radios is contrary to regulations.

        That said, no one is going to stop you from squatting on 146.580 MHz for example, a frequency commonly used by outdoors folks, rules notwithstanding.

        • ac29 4 hours ago
          > In the US all transmitting at 1W with these radios is contrary to regulations.

          With a ham license the limit is 1.5kW, without one its zero

      • asdff 12 hours ago
        How does the FCC enforce this sort of thing? Are they listening in to certain frequencies nationally with the ability to triangulate a handheld down to actually identifying someone?
        • Bender 9 hours ago
          They mostly don't. They send scary letters and maybe eventually fine someone. They have a handful of triangulation vans for the entire US. The barely respond to complaints that are revenue impacting and generally don't respond to complaints from hams that a non ham is using their equipment. Once a quarter they make an example of someone so that it appears they enforce things. The people they make examples of are usually trying really hard to troll them or doing something highly disruptive and these will end up on a few websites and magazines.

          People tinkering and staying away from ham bands will generally be fine and for the cheap ham gear that made easy by design usually by doing a factory reset or worst case having to clip a diode to widen their frequency ranges. Most ham gear is designed to be highly hackable.

          • gh02t 4 hours ago
            You only really get attention from the FCC if you interfere with some other service, especially broadcast or emergency communications frequencies. Grumpy Hams will also hunt you down sometimes, but only if you're persistent. Otherwise yeah, the FCC can't practically enforce every rule everywhere and doesn't really try. Still, get a license and be a good citizen if you want to play with this kind of thing, it's not very difficult.
            • Bender 2 hours ago
              Agreed. One youtuber [1] calls them Sad Hams. That has stuck with me. Linked video is the FCC's recent enforcement actions. I personally find some ham gear to be slightly less sloppy 11 meter rigs and a number of others agree.

              [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeMjMlHpus8

        • fodmap 11 hours ago
          Most of the time they get a complaint, and they investigate.

          https://www.fcc.gov/reports-research/guides/fcc-enforcement-...

          • asdff 11 hours ago
            Wow, you mail them the complaint? No reason to worry about accidentally hitting the talk button I guess. Probably nothing happening unless you spam the frequency for weeks I'd guess.
            • mystraline 7 hours ago
              Yes, weeks if its cell or GPS. Months or never otherwise.
        • martheen 11 hours ago
          Someone complained, they send someone to check and triangulate, verify that the operator doesn't have the license, then issue a warning or fine.
          • asdff 11 hours ago
            I wonder how close they can triangulate? I'd guess they are SOL if I am in an apartment building with 200 other units.
            • martheen 9 hours ago
              I mean, if you're deliberately being a dick about it, they will ask for a warrant and have the LEO accompanying them while triangulating, they can easily figure out which unit and even room you're in by walking around in the building with directional receiver.

              But in general, yeah, unless you do it regularly, living near sensitive facilities (airport, military base, hospital, factories, research labs etc) or deliberately transmitting at/near emergency frequencies (police, paramedic etc) at most you'll get yelled by a pissed off operator (at that point, stop, they could be already coordinating with someone else to triangulate you)

        • l23k4 9 hours ago
          Unless you're going out of your way to force them to react, they do not.
    • lormayna 13 hours ago
      Only on the paper, the real power is around 3/3.5W
    • takipsizad 13 hours ago
      1w is usually okay and using 8w from a phone is probably way too much power demand
  • Melatonic 10 hours ago
    Is it still worth it to mess around with older full duplex handhelds ?
    • gh02t 4 hours ago
      Analog handhelds are still abundant, they've gotten smaller and more efficient but older ones are still basically just as good as new. IMO digital handhelds are superior, but digital protocols are much more fragmented so analog remains king as a common denominator (practically every digital handheld can do analog, too).
  • tamimio 10 hours ago
    I loved it, amazing work, thanks for sharing it!
  • Crunchified 13 hours ago
    This doesn't turn your phone into a ham transceiver at all. It turns your phone into a transceiver controller. Given that a cell phone is a transceiver, this headline is rather disappointing clickbait.
    • alexwwang 13 hours ago
      Agree.

      We need a compact short wave transceiver device actually.

      • jonah 3 hours ago
        QRP is the keyword you may be looking for. 9W, battery powered, SDR shortwave transceivers. There are inexpensive and expensive versions.
      • FabCH 13 hours ago
        Baofeng is 20 dollars? How much cheaper and compact do you need?

        And I know, I know, Baofengs are notorious for going over the allowed noise limits… but still…

        • takipsizad 13 hours ago
          Baofeng's are not shortwave radios afaik
        • jimnotgym 6 hours ago
          Baofengs also have terrible receive filtering. It is perfectly possible to hear no stations because you are being overloaded by something on another frequency. I tried my first SOTA activation with a Boafeng. A transmitter on another hill meant I received nothing, although stains could hear me. By a Yaesu, still cheap
      • NordStreamYacht 12 hours ago
        Yaesu FTW
      • _whiteCaps_ 4 hours ago
        There's the trusdx or the QMX.
      • sfmike 11 hours ago
        Is this prevented by physics or cost or just no one has the motivation?
        • gh02t 3 hours ago
          Compact HF/shortwave radios with transmit capability exist, but they're pretty expensive and are generally definitely portable but not quite handheld. The biggest user of such equipment is the military, so a lot of the tech is engineered for that with civilian/amateur use as an afterthought. ICOM, Yaesu, and Xiegu are probably the best known makers, and you're looking at ~$1000 as table stakes for a modern one, though there are some slightly cheaper options.

          Handheld CB radios do exist and are cheap, but I've never really used them.

        • souterrain 6 hours ago
          There are a number of compact shortwave (radio amateurs prefer the term "high frequency" or HF, in contrast to VHF, UHF) transceivers. The impracticality is from the size of an efficient antenna.

          I have personally made voice (single-sideband or SSB, which is analog like AM without wasting energy transmitting a carrier or redundant sideband) contacts with a 5 watt portable (Elecraft KX2) between countries in Europe, using a meter-long whip antenna and a trailing counterpoise wire.

          These radios are incredibly complex weak-signal equipment, and that is reflected in the price.

          That said, it is fun. Using morse code to do the same is even more fun.

          I would never rely on this for off-the-grid communication, though.

      • RobotToaster 12 hours ago
        A compact CB transceiver would be fun.
        • topspin 11 hours ago
          Fun, but short range. A quarter wave CB antenna is about 2.7 meters long. Without that, you're making more heat than radio.
          • iberator 7 hours ago
            wspr is known to work at 7mhz band with just cloth hanger as antenna. i think its totally possible to use headphones as shitty longwave antenna too
            • topspin 2 hours ago
              Someone already pointed out how the WSPR anecdotes fail for CB. The longwave reception argument is fallacy as well. There, you receive powerful signals with a poor, receive-only antenna; the typical asymmetric model of commercial broadcast radio (and cellular, for that matter.) With CB, both sides are low power. Legally, that is. And neither antenna is on a huge tower.

              Several handheld CB radios exist, with little loaded whip antennas. You can go buy one. You'll see. They work for talking between two tractors in a field or whatnot. Past that, not so much. Today, you're better off with license free UHF handhelds for that use case.

            • jimnotgym 4 hours ago
              Wspr is very optimised for weak signals, though. You wouldn't actually hear anything but noise.
    • lovelearning 11 hours ago
      I don't see it as clickbait since the realities of the Android ecosystem is a shared context.

      Most people know that just about every Android phone has a restricted hardware design, not an expandable one.

      So, "turn your phone into X" is bound to automatically evoke images of another device that plugs into the phone via common connectors like USB or the audio jack and an app on the phone to control that device. That's what the phrase means to most people in the context of Android.

      "Turn your phone into a ham radio transceiver controller" is neither needed nor entirely accurate, because then people will assume it can control _any_ ham radio transceiver.

      • Crunchified 11 hours ago
        The article is chiefly about a radio circuit you can "build", plus some controller software that happens to run on an Android phone. Meanwhile the headline is 100% focused on describing something that your phone can be made to do (which you have admitted that it can't).

        The two don't add up, and your apologetic analysis doesn't convince me otherwise. It's still clickbait. An Android cell phone has radio guts, and that headline is just gutless.

        • lovelearning 2 hours ago
          It's not "apologetic" and it wasn't meant to convince you but to refute your pointless pedantic nitpicking for other readers.
      • lxgr 11 hours ago
        "Turn your phone into a nuclear reactor (by plugging it into a wall outlet served by a nuclear power plant)"
        • developer786 9 hours ago
          Why do some people get so hung up about minor things in life. The OP has done a fantastic job, not just building it, but both the delivery and mechanics.
          • lxgr 9 hours ago
            I agree, it is a fantastic job!

            The title is still misleading to me. Not terribly so – hence my not quite serious reply – but I was expecting something like https://timestation.pages.dev/, which actually transmits using included hardware only.

        • lovelearning 8 hours ago
          Very funny.

          However, your analogy is not equivalent to, nor an example for, what I said. There's a difference between a phone's own USB/audiojack interfaces and a wall outlet.

  • mashijian 8 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • mystraline 7 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • souterrain 6 hours ago
      Practically, this take emphasizes my point on repeaters. Each open active repeater develops its own subculture. (That said, the overwhelming majority of repeaters in the US are idle.)

      You may not be welcome on any given repeater.

    • jimnotgym 6 hours ago
      The only hams I ever enjoyed talking to were SOTA chasers when I was the activator. Bit of an all day job, and therefore something I don't really have time to do.
    • kotaKat 6 hours ago
      "Ham radio is like Chatroulette in that you don't know which old man at the other end of the ionosphere you're going to end up talking with."