How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

(asymco.com)

71 points | by tambourine_man 2 days ago

11 comments

  • nikhizzle 1 hour ago
    Ex-Apple kernel engineer here, Apple will deal with the memory shortage by making software more efficient in ram usage. Apple will just make every aspect of the system more and more memory efficient. They've done it before over and over and can do it again.
    • cybercatgurrl 1 hour ago
      i wonder if this is the real reason behind the push for the snow leopard like release this year
    • szmarczak 1 hour ago
      Apple? Sure. What about other developers? Firefox, Chrome already use gigabytes of RAM.
      • astrange 36 minutes ago
        It's the websites that use that RAM, not the browsers.

        (Often the ads on the websites.)

      • bombcar 1 hour ago
        Suddenly Safari can surge ahead again!
      • replygirl 52 minutes ago
        welcome to the rust community
  • dnnddidiej 1 hour ago
    Got a shitty PC with 32gb ddr5 now the ram alone is almost worth as much as the purchase price of it all. It is playing up.. normally I'd return it to Amazon but...
  • ruguo 1 hour ago
    I wonder if companies like Apple will eventually start making memory themselves.
    • HDBaseT 1 hour ago
      I would suspect at Apple scale it makes sense.

      Apple has started making a lot of different things in house, its only a matter of time imo.

    • fhn 1 hour ago
      they blew it! They could have bought Intel for cheap and made memory AND CPUs!
    • spiffistan 1 hour ago
      This is probably the natural conclusion but it will take some time to get there
    • NooneAtAll3 1 hour ago
      in a sense that's exactly what cartel wants - to lure out investments that will get squashed into uselessness by supply flood that will follow
      • bombcar 1 hour ago
        The key is Apple can be their own customer and just not care anymore.

        It’ll probably only be worth it if it enables something “new” like more bigger Ultra chips or something.

      • brcmthrowaway 1 hour ago
        Who is the cartel?

        SK Hynix, Samsung and Micron?

        They should be banned.

  • kryptiskt 5 hours ago
    This reads like Apple fanfiction to me.

    > But then Apple can negotiate on another basis and say, well, if you don’t do us a favor here and give us a better rate, then maybe we won’t work with you when all this settles down. You know things are going to settle down. These things are always cyclical. There’s never been a semiconductor boom that’s not followed by a semiconductor bust. Never. And they know it.

    I have to think that the RAM suppliers wouldn't be that easy to intimidate with threats, since they know perfectly well how few alternatives Apple has. And they are also perfectly aware that Apple will play hardball with them when the market turns, regardless of whether they were nice to Apple now.

    • coredog64 5 hours ago
      Apple bought PA Semi as the starting point to getting off of Intel. Theoretically, memory seems like something Apple could figure out how to fab. And it's not like they don't have any capital reserves.
      • ls65536 4 hours ago
        They bought P.A. Semi, but it was for their design capability; they never had fabs anyway, and Apple still depends on TSMC and others for manufacturing chips. Apple building fabs to ensure a guaranteed supply of memory (or logic) chips would be an unprecedented level of vertical integration, even for them.
      • astrange 34 minutes ago
        DRAM fabs are their own well-known specialized process which is covered by the DRAM companies. It doesn't make sense to start a competitor for it.
        • kristianp 3 minutes ago
          There's a bunch of chinese DRAM companies currently playing catchup to get closer to modern densities. Could Apple buy one of those? I'm guessing there would be regulatory hurdles to that on both sides of the pond.
      • GeekyBear 4 hours ago
        In the Tim Cook era when Apple needs to lock down the supply of a commodity part, they have a history of buying a dedicated manufacturing line for a manufacturing partner.
      • cmcclellan 2 hours ago
        It's crazy to think Apple would actually fab memory (or TSMC for that matter). It's an entirely different process than logic.
    • colechristensen 2 hours ago
      Yes, the author knows very little about the industry or how Apple operates. Fanfiction indeed.

      They book manufacturing capacity often years in advance. Samsung is their majority RAM supplier and they reportedly agreed to doubling their price a few months ago.

      https://finance.yahoo.com/news/samsung-100-ram-price-hike-12...

      The original article is baseless speculation proven wrong by news announced in February.

      • brailsafe 1 hour ago
        > Yes, the author knows very little about the industry or how Apple operates.

        Hardly. While it may be fan fiction, or speculation, Horace has been researching and writing about Apple's operations for decades. I tried listening to his podcast years ago and the discussion at the time of Apple's supply chain movements was extremely detailed to the point where it wasn't even listenable for me.

        "Our team has over 25 years of daily research on Apple Inc"

        https://asymco.com/about/

        It's literally all they do

  • melonpan7 1 hour ago
    The author doesn’t seem to understand that Apple places RAM orders years in advance. I’m not sure if it’s even feasible or possible for Apple to fully integrate their supply chain and open up memory fabs, the cost of entry must be enormous.
    • dweekly 1 hour ago
      And by "places orders" we mean "helps TSMC acquire plots of land on which their next facilities will be constructed" kind of level of scope, timing, and commitment.
      • melonpan7 1 hour ago
        Yes I believe that’s what being a manufacturer partner entails
      • fhn 1 hour ago
        TSMC doesn't make RAM do they?
        • dweekly 38 minutes ago
          Fair, and I meant it as illustrative of partner depth generally rather than as a specific example around RAM.
  • opengrass 5 hours ago
    Can't even find a ddr2 sodimm that's not a ripoff.
  • christkv 5 hours ago
    Our problem is lack of competition
    • colechristensen 2 hours ago
      No, it's the time, effort, and capital necessary to build cutting edge semiconductor fabs. Measured in tens of billions of dollars and decades.
    • SoftTalker 5 hours ago
      High prices for RAM should attract competition.
      • pixl97 4 hours ago
        In general, no.

        It takes billions to tens of billions to setup a fab. It also takes years to get it working. Then when you add in the IP for memory, it pretty much ain't happening.

        All the RAM monopoly has to do is wait 3 days before you're producing and drop the price and you're ruined. Meanwhile they've built up a battle chest of hundreds of billions in profits.

        China might be the only competition we see come out of this, but only because they are playing the long game and have trillions of US dollars to play the game with.

        • SoftTalker 4 hours ago
          There are a lot of companies that have billions in cash and are also prodigious buyers of RAM. Companies like Apple, Google, Meta, Nvidia...

          Do they want to get into a commodity business like RAM production? Maybe not, but if prices stay high long enough that demand for their products falls off, they might think about it.

          I know that I personally and my employer are cutting way back on new technology purchases and squeezing as much as we can out of old equipment due to the cost of RAM and storage now.

          • cogman10 4 hours ago
            And none of these companies are operating their own fabs, that's the problem.

            Fabs are a cutthroat business that's very hard to get into. It costs billions of continual investment to stay a float. That's why there's really only about 3 different companies with cutting edge fabs. TSMC, Micron, and Samsung. Even intel, who built a huge portion of their business on cutting edge fab tech, has struggled to keep funding it. AMD got out of the fab business almost a decade ago (spinning off global foundries) and that spin off is no longer cutting edge. AMD uses TSMC.

            Fabs are some of the most expensive factories to operate on this planet due to a constant need for brand new equipment and cutting edge research. That's why there's not an Apple, Google, Meta, or Nvidia fab. That's why there's not an AMD fab. That's why Intel fabs are treading water.

            Without the constant investment, you very quickly find yourself in the company of yet another cutthroat industry, the "not cutting edge" fabrication industry. And that, by and large, has already been locked up by about a dozen fab companies.

            • xenadu02 3 hours ago
              I've made this same argument so let me make a counter-argument:

              There are some ways to get this off the ground much quicker. One or more companies could buy an existing non-leading-edge fab like GlobalFoundaries. That buys a lot of expertise so you're not starting from zero.

              DRAM also benefits from being very regular and relatively simple. It used to be what you bring up on a new process node to help prove things out.

              It also isn't impossible to reduce reliance on ASML if you're willing to throw money at it. That's definitely a super-long-game move but it could be done.

              I'm not going to argue that someone is going to do any of this but if demand is sustained it is possible.

              • cogman10 1 hour ago
                It does help, but I have to wonder how many people are still working at glofo currently who are researching node shrinks. They stopped their research into the 7nm process in 2018 and all the indications are that they aren't really continuing it.

                Meanwhile, I believe SOTA is at least 3 or 4 node shrinks beyond that 7nm process. It'll take years for them to catch up to where micron is currently.

            • SoftTalker 4 hours ago
              And a 64G DDR5 ECC DIMM costs $3K and is backordered. If ths isn't a bubble and demand persists, some new players are eventually going to want a cut of that.
              • cogman10 3 hours ago
                We aren't talking about making new lug-nuts. A company can't just will a fab into existence.

                For example, Micron is actively building a few new fabs. One of which has been in progress since Biden (pretty close to my home in fact). It's not going to be completed for another 5 years at a minimum. And this is a company that has the experience and partnerships for producing fabs.

                Yes, a new company might decide they want to enter the market, but even if they decided, today, "Yes we'll do this" I'd expect a minimum of a decade before they start spinning out their first chips. That's also at least a $1T investment at this point to get started.

                • astrange 31 minutes ago
                  > And this is a company that has the experience and partnerships for producing fabs.

                  Not even they necessarily have the experience to do it! Intel has a policy called "Copy EXACTLY!" for fab construction where they make every irrelevant detail the same as their last fab, because they don't actually know which of the details matter.

              • pixl97 3 hours ago
                So yea, Samsung built a chip factory pretty close to where I live. Number one it is forking gigantic. You don't just slap one of these babies down. Next, the equipment that goes inside of that massive clean room building is a problem in itself. That takes years to get ordered, then years to ensure it works right, with employees that have a very particular skill set.

                Again, people might want part of it, but they are also a bit smarter than you are and read history books to see exactly how this is going to play out and then they gladly walk away before they light their money on fire.

              • mschuster91 3 hours ago
                The thing is, pretty much everyone relevant assumes it is a bubble and that eventually large players will end up facing mob justice. That's why the hundreds of billions of $ IOUs are getting passed around like hot potatoes, and that's (in addition to ASML, the key part of anything EUV lithography, being booked out for years) why no one is planning to construct dozens of billions of dollars worth of fabs.

                In addition, the know-how is concentrated in Taiwan. You literally can't train enough people in enough time to move everything out of there.

          • pixl97 4 hours ago
            >a lot of companies that have billions in cash

            They sit on billions because they avoid spending their money as much as possible.

            The amount they spend on RAM in surrounding few years would represent almost nothing to the massive money hole that would happen if they tried to make their own fab.

            Also, these problems tend to affect the entire market, which means if you're big, you're fine. It's when problems don't affect your competitors but affect you that the real issues for these companies crop up.

      • GeekyBear 4 hours ago
        Chinese DRAM production is already getting ready to ramp up.

        https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/ram/hp-reportedly...

      • kingstnap 2 hours ago
        The only thing that can actually introduce competition in RAM is some form of government backing around national security concerns. China has been doing this for some time though so there will probably be major Chinese supply coming in the medium term.
      • andrepd 4 hours ago
        Real life is not SimCity, you can't just plonk more RAM factories like that. It takes an ungodly amount of capital investment, many years before you see a cent in return, plus there's only a couple firms worldwide that can do it in the first place.
  • refulgentis 5 hours ago
    "So much so that I heard Samsung’s making more money now with memory than Nvidia’s making with their processors."

    I loved Asymco during the Apple 2010s run up, but this, inter alia things mentioned in other comments, should give the reader pause and evaluate how much of this is general knowledge x handwaving x vibes versus a practical ground floor understanding in 2026.

  • throwaway613746 4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • jackmott42 3 hours ago
    build a fab!
    • fhn 1 hour ago
      buy an Intel!
  • autoexec 2 hours ago
    Fortunately for apple, many of their customers don't really care all that much about specs or getting the most performance for their money and worry a lot more about brand loyalty, appearances, and "vibes". Others are so embedded in the ecosystem that it'd be more painful to pull out than to pay up. That means that Apple can get away with offering less RAM than their competition.

    I wouldn't count on that lowering prices for apple products though. As the competition is forced to raise their prices due to the cost of memory, Apple will need to increase their prices even higher just to maintain their prestige pricing or they risk losing their reputation as a luxury brand/status symbol.

    • gensym 2 hours ago
      Yeah, I guess it was just charity that led them to develop a really fast, efficient processor and to put good memory in their machines in the first place.

      Don't mistake not caring about "specs" with being indifferent to the experience.

      • autoexec 2 hours ago
        "the experience" is what I meant by "vibes" and Apple users can care a lot about that. That means a whole lot more than just performance though which is why it's often so easy to find non-Apple products with way better specs for the same or lower prices. Some Apple users are fine with a slower experience as long as it's still an Apple experience.
    • fhn 1 hour ago
      completely agree. Most Apple users are in it for the ecosystem. Tech people care about performance and these people don't typically choose Apple until recently with the M series which are a beast. Even I'm envious.