From Buffon's Needle to Buffon's Noodle

(mbmccoy.dev)

16 points | by _alternator_ 3 days ago

2 comments

  • card_zero 5 hours ago
    I'm wary of asking questions (my curiosity is bounded), but what changes if you limit the range of allowed angles to multiples of, say, 10°? How about 90°, does pi go away then?
    • _alternator_ 3 hours ago
      Author here. If I understand the question, the answer is that the average number of lines that the "noodle" intersects depends only on the length of the noodle. If you change the angles between the segments, the average stays the same.

      So taking the limit of a large number of segments converging to a circle of diameter W leads to the result that the average number of intersections must be 2L/\pi.

      • card_zero 1 hour ago
        I was thinking along these lines: suppose it's a needle, but it can't rotate. It always falls at the same angle. Then there's no noodle, and no apparent connection to circles. Is pi still involved? Next, suppose there are two perpendicular angles that are permitted, and the needle always falls at one of those. That means you can have square noodles, but rotations still aren't allowed, so the squares must always be aligned the same way, and the only suggestion of a circle is if you consider a square to be an approximation to a circle. Then three angles, hexagonal noodles. Does an approximation to pi therefore slowly creep in as you increase the sides on the polygon?
        • _alternator_ 7 minutes ago
          For the first question, the answer is just cos(\theta)*L/W, where theta is the angle off horizontal (assuming the floorboards are vertical). So a trig function shows up, if not pi.

          If you don't allow rotations, but somehow still take a polygonal limit to circles, I suspect you'll end up with the same answer. But the limit is necessarily restricted relative to highly symmetric polygons going this route.

          In general, rotational symmetry gives a ton of power to simplify the math, and leads to highly general results like arbitrary "noodles" having the same average crossing count as needles of the same length.

  • enricozb 5 hours ago
    Pretty neat! However, if you wanted to know the _probability_ of a noodle crossing any line in the long noodle case (L/W > 1), the expression is more complex (and I believe would require an integral) :).

    It's interesting that the number of crossings is independent of whether L/W is less than or greater than 1, but the probability of crossings is equal to 2pi * L/W only in the short case. This makes sense since in the short case the noodle can at most cross a single line.

    • _alternator_ 3 hours ago
      This is the crux of the observation. For needles of length less than W, the probability that it crosses a floorboard is equal to the average number of floorboards it crosses. (Exercise for the reader ;))

      The point is that the "right" quantity to be considering for the problem is the average number crossings, since that naturally extends to curved noodles, lines of any length, and even circles. The number of crossings is also known as the Euler characteristic of the intersection, and there's a rather deep and beautiful theory of geometric probability that takes this as the jumping off point.