How many people actually find utility from a Zettelkasten system?
I just can't bring myself to go to the effort of documenting a thought and adding links/tags unless it is something I predict that I will need sometime in the future and won't just remember. Due to this, my Obsidian vault is pretty much a collection of a bunch of temporary to-do lists and then some folders with specific reference information. If I'm linking thoughts together I'm doing it real time in my head, anything else takes me too far out of my thought process.
I can see it if you are a person working in academia or a writer where you may be generating concepts that you want to link together in the future. But as someone that does project type work, I'm following too much of a defined process to see any benefit.
It comes down to are you reading to write, or reading to think?
Zettelkasten facilitates publication dysentery, which is already out of hand. I have the same problem with conventional bibliography managers. I have a few thousand papers and books on my computer, woven with the beginnings of a mind-mapping system. I recoil every time I consider using software "designed" for this, which excels at cranking out papers but not at deftly flying through idea space. And idea space is an actual thing now, that "King - Man + Woman = Queen" linear algebra supporting AI. Ignore this and one is selling buggy whips.
Reifying memory is the next frontier for LLMs, with many efforts underway. That should be our defining use case for mind-mapping.
I've written thousands of notes with just vim and the file system for over 20 years with little protocol. It's worked out great for me. Simple short text files that eventually graduated to markdown. I have folders and subfolders for top level topic hierarchy. Usually just a single level, a parent folder and then files for specific topics. It rarely goes deeper than two levels. I title everything descriptively to guide me to find what I need later. Like I said, thousands of notes spanning 20 years, never a problem.
I'm no expert, but looking from afar it seems to me that complex note-taking systems are an optimization on some anticipated theoretical future problem that seldom materializes in practice, and I think trying to squeeze those promised extra 10% of efficiency might possibly qualify as diminishing returns.
I found it useful when writing a thesis. It gave me a way to research many ideas, not directly connected to the main topic, but still interesting in my mind at least. I really enjoyed this unstructured approach. I didn't have to worry that I will get stuck, because I always had a way back to the main topic.
So, I think you need some kind of a goal, a bigger project, for Zettelkasten to become useful.
I developed one for a specific personal research topic. Once I answered my question, the initiative petered out.
I've considered starting another based on the idea of getting high off knowledge. I don't see the point as an information store, but as a toy it makes sense; use it spark curiosity, make neat connections, etc.
The system also feels to me like it would be busywork for most people. I just make notes in a very unorganized way and do some cross-linking. I rely on search for actually finding things, though I feel like I can improve search by using sentence/text embeddings and some vector search.
That's what LLMs are best, actually. Go through all your stuff and painstakingly document, add tags, refer to other documents, etc
> Due to this, my Obsidian vault is pretty much a collection of a bunch of temporary to-do lists and then some folders with specific reference information
LLMs can also separate what information was only useful at a specific time vs more perennially useful notes.
Isn't the "gardening" aspect part of it though? It's where you naturally review and mentally correlate topics, infer connections in your brain and spark new paths?
This is true. It would be beneficial to do such a task
However, if one doesn't want (or just doesn't have time) to do the task but still want a tidy cross-referenced set of notes, one could outsource to a LLM
Definitely not. I really like Obsidian, but organize everything like a book, which gives just enough structure to know where everything goes without thinking about it, and no more.
There’s just not enough there to make into a blog post.
I got enthusiastic about ZK years ago, learned about it and decided it was not for me, it is just too much work with very little to gain from it. Just use Google Keep
At the least, Zettelkasten like habit can be helpful.
For me, I don't bookmark a webpage, I'm usually after a sentence or something after.
Highlighting that one sentence or webpage is a habit.
Throwing a tag or two on them isn't as hard when you can call the tags whatever you want.
After that, those topics are one click away, 5-10 years later.
Trying out Zettelkasten, or PARA, Johnny Decimal or some other system, one will work for you. It's less about perfectionism at the start and just improving.
It's also possible to have an AI just organize the folders for you little by little.
It can not be great at first to play around but the more you work at it the more it does become.
Luhmann left behind 70,000 index cards, published over 70 books and ~400 papers, and his systems theory is still actively applied in sociology, legal theory, and organizational studies. He's required reading at German universities. Your sample size of n=2 is methodologically a little thin – which Luhmann himself would have appreciated, given that he had a particular fondness for pointing out systemic blind spots.
"Two professors hadn't heard of him" is a fascinating epistemological standard. Like me stating: I've also met two cardiologists who didn't know who Rudolf Virchow was. Guess he wasn't that productive either.
Fair enough, I missed the mark that I was intending. Possibly he remains better recognized in Germany than in North America; and it’s admittedly not my field. At the same time, more than once when I’ve posed the question about the utility of ZK, I’ve been pointed only to Luhmann. His academic productivity isn’t in dispute. And seemingly, for him, it was aided by the methodology that is promoted by ZK followers now. But it’s also an n=1 data point. I wonder if the ZK community has identified other productive and impactful academics who are devotees.
As for the last comment: having gone to medical school some decades ago and trained in cardiology, I’m familiar with Virchow. I would be surprised to encounter any physician who hadn’t any familiarity with him. But who knows?!
I remember doing some research on this topic, and, when I looked for usage patterns for my type of job specifically, I realized that most people were just posting about their workflows learning about... taking notes.
I see a lot of people say you have to use methodology X, or that methodology Y is worthless.
I'm the end, I think we have maybe different uses for notes. Journaling, scratchpads, to-do lists, research, etc.
Take a methodology with a grain of salt. If it doesn't fit, there's a good chance it's solving someone else's problem, but you can always inform your own approach with it.
Having to manage links and tags for every note quickly makes the notion of a note system less than appealing.
Personally, I use a "temporary -Zettelkasten" strategy in my inbox. But it's more that I just timestamp new notes.
The power of obsidian imo is that I can quickly organize those inbox notes into their respective project notes with the touch of a hotkey
And then again in the project note, the Obsidian editor features (mostly around useful hotkeys) allow me to quickly manage my notes how I see fit (no particular strategy here other than being heavily influenced by GTD)
Can anyone share agent skills that specifically help with the organizing, structuring, and linking of Obsidian files like a Karpathy style wiki? (Eg taking /raw content and processing it following some protocol)
It is too complicated. We just get, save or write something, maybe with some categories, keywords, or tags.
After saving, maybe you need some organization later, but most time they are just there. Most time you search content by categories, keywords, or tags.
I think we need right tools for different requirements.
I really want to use Obsidian but it being closed source is a big No for me. I know I can keep all my files in plain text and move on to another platform buy the thing is: if a bunch of files and a FS were enough for me to keep my KB, then ofc I wouldn’t need something like Obsidian. The thing is I need something like Obsidian; a bunch of files lying around is not enough for me
Technically, Obsidian is just a fancy 'browser/editor' for markdown files laying around. Should Obsidian disappear as a functional tool tomorrow, recreating the basic functionality (show, edit, manage links, follow links) would take a sufficiently motivated guy a few hours. If you need the 'petri dish' view, maybe a little longer. In such an event, I suppose enough people would be eager to build their own and OSS variants would emerge within days.
If you can stomach not working in Markdown, emacs' ORGmode exists and has all the functionality Obsidian has, and then some, open source, with a slightly different hypertext format.
Unless you are hellbent on one particular Obsidian plugin, you should be good.
I built the AS Notes extension for VS Code (https://asnotes.io) partly because I wanted to be able to write my notes with the support of other VS Code extensions, and because of the agent harness options in VS Code (copilot etc). The key thing for easy zettlekasten management is really good wikilink support in markdown. AS Notes supports nested wikilinking and automatic updating in the index on rename etc.
yeah the maintenance spiral is exactly why I gave up and just dumped everything into a GitHub repo. plain markdown files, no plugins, no drama. only problem is GitHub's renderer is kind of garbage for a real wiki. ended up having to build my own github wiki reader
Why on Earth, the chapter “What the Zettelkasten method actually is” doesn’t tell me what is this method? The same with the first result on Kagi. There are several paragraphs without saying anything worth saying. They have a very religious kind of feeling.
I had to force even LLM to answer properly, because it answered the same substanceless way. The only thing helped is to ask it, what distinguishes this to the web, wikis, or HATEOAS.
Zettelkasten is great for researchers. I actually don't think it's that valuable for practicing technologists. The general practice of taking notes and connecting ideas together is of course useful, but most technologists don't need such a sophisticated system.
Amid all the fanaticism that grew around zettelkasten method the past few years people have forgotten and de-emphasized the fact that for Luhmann it was not a "second brain" to be referenced on demand, it was explicitly a system to support writing. It is tailored to help researchers write papers. It shines if you actually need a system in which to keep notions coherent and organized so that ideas are clear and citations precise when you need them during the writing process. If that's not you, the overhead probably isn't worth it. Just keep a notebook.
The credit goes to Luhmann. Ahrens wrote a book about Luhmann's system, but Ahrens' book was more about the practical side of study habits and the nature of knowledge as much as it was about the practical side of actually using a zettelkasten.
I bought Ahrens's book to learn how to take smart notes. It should've been called Why to Take Smart Notes. The book was more about how good and lifechanging it is to use Zettelkasten, which was a bummer because I was already interested enough in the idea to buy a book about it. I was looking for more of a how-to.
Edit: Upon a quick scan, this looks more like what I learned as "Linking Your Thinking", which resonates way more with me than a strict Zettelkasten format where you try to arrange notes linearly to match some artificial constraint.
And I think that's a good thing, just not how Ahrens described Zettelkasten.
Yes that is fair, I adjusted and simplified the system for my usage. I didn't include any of the note "phases" / transitions, so e.g. no fleeting notes.
Systems like these made sense in the pre-AI era, where things needed to be organized at the outset to be useful later.
With AI, there's nothing stopping you from dumping a huge pile of information into a single folder and telling an AI what you want to make with it that day.
Actually AI also benefits from thins being organized.
I find Skills to be Zettlekasten inspired or wiki inspired in that sense.
Zettlekast has other benefits for humans though.
If your goal is to grasp lot of knowladge oyu need to do it in atomic way, connect mentally to what you already know and do spaced repetition to internalize.
Zettlkeaste forces you do it it all as part of organizing. Basically by organizing you make it your own.
Yes AI can help today but it also means it does not stay in your head.
Not sure its important if it is in your head or you can call AI at any moment instead of your own memory.
Except that note-taking systems are meant to help you organize your own mind and understand the world better. Offloading tasks to AI won't help you with that.
I just can't bring myself to go to the effort of documenting a thought and adding links/tags unless it is something I predict that I will need sometime in the future and won't just remember. Due to this, my Obsidian vault is pretty much a collection of a bunch of temporary to-do lists and then some folders with specific reference information. If I'm linking thoughts together I'm doing it real time in my head, anything else takes me too far out of my thought process.
I can see it if you are a person working in academia or a writer where you may be generating concepts that you want to link together in the future. But as someone that does project type work, I'm following too much of a defined process to see any benefit.
Zettelkasten facilitates publication dysentery, which is already out of hand. I have the same problem with conventional bibliography managers. I have a few thousand papers and books on my computer, woven with the beginnings of a mind-mapping system. I recoil every time I consider using software "designed" for this, which excels at cranking out papers but not at deftly flying through idea space. And idea space is an actual thing now, that "King - Man + Woman = Queen" linear algebra supporting AI. Ignore this and one is selling buggy whips.
Reifying memory is the next frontier for LLMs, with many efforts underway. That should be our defining use case for mind-mapping.
I'm no expert, but looking from afar it seems to me that complex note-taking systems are an optimization on some anticipated theoretical future problem that seldom materializes in practice, and I think trying to squeeze those promised extra 10% of efficiency might possibly qualify as diminishing returns.
So, I think you need some kind of a goal, a bigger project, for Zettelkasten to become useful.
I've considered starting another based on the idea of getting high off knowledge. I don't see the point as an information store, but as a toy it makes sense; use it spark curiosity, make neat connections, etc.
That's what LLMs are best, actually. Go through all your stuff and painstakingly document, add tags, refer to other documents, etc
> Due to this, my Obsidian vault is pretty much a collection of a bunch of temporary to-do lists and then some folders with specific reference information
LLMs can also separate what information was only useful at a specific time vs more perennially useful notes.
However, if one doesn't want (or just doesn't have time) to do the task but still want a tidy cross-referenced set of notes, one could outsource to a LLM
There’s just not enough there to make into a blog post.
For me, I don't bookmark a webpage, I'm usually after a sentence or something after.
Highlighting that one sentence or webpage is a habit.
Throwing a tag or two on them isn't as hard when you can call the tags whatever you want.
After that, those topics are one click away, 5-10 years later.
Trying out Zettelkasten, or PARA, Johnny Decimal or some other system, one will work for you. It's less about perfectionism at the start and just improving.
It's also possible to have an AI just organize the folders for you little by little.
It can not be great at first to play around but the more you work at it the more it does become.
"Two professors hadn't heard of him" is a fascinating epistemological standard. Like me stating: I've also met two cardiologists who didn't know who Rudolf Virchow was. Guess he wasn't that productive either.
As for the last comment: having gone to medical school some decades ago and trained in cardiology, I’m familiar with Virchow. I would be surprised to encounter any physician who hadn’t any familiarity with him. But who knows?!
https://niklas-luhmann-archiv.de/bestand/zettelkasten/inhalt...
Sociology prof: "uhhhh. Well, the good news is that there are a ton of YouTube videos about you."
I'm the end, I think we have maybe different uses for notes. Journaling, scratchpads, to-do lists, research, etc.
Take a methodology with a grain of salt. If it doesn't fit, there's a good chance it's solving someone else's problem, but you can always inform your own approach with it.
Personally, I use a "temporary -Zettelkasten" strategy in my inbox. But it's more that I just timestamp new notes.
The power of obsidian imo is that I can quickly organize those inbox notes into their respective project notes with the touch of a hotkey
And then again in the project note, the Obsidian editor features (mostly around useful hotkeys) allow me to quickly manage my notes how I see fit (no particular strategy here other than being heavily influenced by GTD)
My practical guide on setting up a smart notes / Zettelkasten / atomic notes Vault: https://bryanhogan.com/blog/obsidian-zettelkasten
Also wrote about how it fits into my overall Vault setup: https://bryanhogan.com/blog/obsidian-vault
After saving, maybe you need some organization later, but most time they are just there. Most time you search content by categories, keywords, or tags.
I think we need right tools for different requirements.
If you can stomach not working in Markdown, emacs' ORGmode exists and has all the functionality Obsidian has, and then some, open source, with a slightly different hypertext format.
Unless you are hellbent on one particular Obsidian plugin, you should be good.
I had to force even LLM to answer properly, because it answered the same substanceless way. The only thing helped is to ask it, what distinguishes this to the web, wikis, or HATEOAS.
Edit: Oh, I actually just found the comment from the author here, sounds like AI slop.
Amid all the fanaticism that grew around zettelkasten method the past few years people have forgotten and de-emphasized the fact that for Luhmann it was not a "second brain" to be referenced on demand, it was explicitly a system to support writing. It is tailored to help researchers write papers. It shines if you actually need a system in which to keep notions coherent and organized so that ideas are clear and citations precise when you need them during the writing process. If that's not you, the overhead probably isn't worth it. Just keep a notebook.
https://github.com/skiwithuge/brainstack
https://writing.bobdoto.computer/zettelkasten/
My Obsidian Vault setup: https://bryanhogan.com/blog/obsidian-vault
All posts about Obsidian: https://bryanhogan.com/tags/obsidian
Maybe this helps?
Edit: Upon a quick scan, this looks more like what I learned as "Linking Your Thinking", which resonates way more with me than a strict Zettelkasten format where you try to arrange notes linearly to match some artificial constraint.
And I think that's a good thing, just not how Ahrens described Zettelkasten.
With AI, there's nothing stopping you from dumping a huge pile of information into a single folder and telling an AI what you want to make with it that day.
Zettlekast has other benefits for humans though. If your goal is to grasp lot of knowladge oyu need to do it in atomic way, connect mentally to what you already know and do spaced repetition to internalize. Zettlkeaste forces you do it it all as part of organizing. Basically by organizing you make it your own.
Yes AI can help today but it also means it does not stay in your head. Not sure its important if it is in your head or you can call AI at any moment instead of your own memory.