Can you take an ox to Oxford?

(alexwlchan.net)

28 points | by surprisetalk 5 days ago

15 comments

  • ionwake 3 hours ago
    Im not sure if this is of interest, but in the city of london (the bit that doesnt even "belong" to the crown ) , you are legally allowed to walk sheep across to it over Tower Bridge if you are a freeman "Gentleman of the City" ( right into the heart of london!).

    Also in Newcastle Upon Tyne I believe you are allowed to take yoru sheep to eat from the grassland in the city center too.

    • rantallion 1 hour ago
      Sheep on the Town Moor would be a new one. The Freeman of the city have herbage rights for cattle, which are a frequent sight.

      > "herbage right" means the full right and benefit of herbage vested in the resident freemen and widows to graze cows on the Town Moor;

      Source: [Newcastle-upon-Tyne Town Moor Act 1988](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1988/31/pdfs/ukla_198800...)

    • foldr 3 hours ago
      > (the bit that doesnt even "belong" to the crown )

      This is a myth, incidentally.

      • seanhunter 1 hour ago
        Yeah the way this goes is before the monarch enters the city of London, the Lord Mayor of London presents them with a sword as an act of swearing fealty. This ritual has been turned by urban myth into the monarch having to ask permission to enter (which is not true- they don't have to ask permission and they don't ask permission). The crown also doesn't own most of the UK or even London. The monarch is the Duke of Lancaster[1] so if you die without a will in some areas of the North the crown can actually get all your stuff and they own a bunch of castles and estates etc. The Duke of Westminster is one of the UK's richest people as he really does own most of the real estate in Mayfair and Westminster so everyone in a building owned by "Grosvenor Estates" is paying rent to that dude.[2]

        What is true is if you go to London you can see the boundaries of the city of London which are a set of cast iron dragon markers you see around and about on all streets marking the ancient boundary between Westminster and London.[3]

        [1] Weirdly this was true even when Queen Elizabeth was the monarch. She was the Duke of Lancaster, not the Duchess. Apparently a female spouse of a Duke is a Duchess but if it's you and you're female then you're the Duke. I don't make the rules. https://www.duchyoflancaster.co.uk/

        [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grosvenor,_7th_Duke_of_We...

        [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_boundary_mark

  • EliteGadget 2 hours ago
    > Surprisingly, UK legislation doesn’t define “mechanically propelled”. Lawyers usually define everything, even words that seem obvious.

    The terminology is self explanatory. Therefore it does not need any further explanation even for legal purposes. Also generally smart ass workarounds don't work with the magistrate and/or courts.

    • another-dave 1 hour ago
      You say that, but "mechanically" in the dictionary gives "In a mechanical manner."

      "Mechnical" gives "Of or relating to machines or tools."

      "Machine" gives "A device consisting of fixed and moving parts that modifies mechanical energy and transmits it in a more useful form." and "A system or device for doing work, as an automobile or jackhammer, together with its power source and auxiliary equipment."

      An ox & cart fits the bill for "machine" with that lens. Not sure it's a smart-alec workaround, any more than the likes of McVities arguing the biscuits vs cakes in court for Jaffa Cakes. Anything not defined is fair game.

      • dredmorbius 8 minutes ago
        "Propelled" is the other term in that definition. A conveyance might be mechanical in the sense you describe without being propelled by a machine.

        At the same time, an individual person being blown forward by a sufficiently large fan might meet the qualification of "mechanically propelled" without being in a mechanical conveyance per se.

        But more generally, a vehicle plus a motor of some description would seem to meet the definition. ICE, steam, electric, spring-wound, whatevs.

      • EliteGadget 34 minutes ago
        It is perfectly obvious to me and to the vast majority of people. That is why they didn't bother defining it further.

        > An ox & cart fits the bill for "machine" with that lens

        No it doesn't. I don't think you thought this through. An ox is obviously not mechanical (it being an animal) which is what is propelling the cart. Therefore it is not mechanically propelled.

        If it was a person a bicycle then would be more ambiguity. But it is commonly understood that a bicycle (excluding e-bikes which are mopeds) is not a "motor vehicle", because it is propelled by the rider's effort.

  • BoxOfRain 4 hours ago
    You probably can take an ox to Oxford, there's horses there so I don't see why oxen would be ruled out. What you probably can't do is get an ox through the traffic on Abingdon Road if you're taking it to work.
    • azalemeth 1 hour ago
      I thought this article would be about freezing rights on either Godstow meadow or Christ Church meadow; both places where you can expect to see both horses and cows and places where it is not surprising to learn of medieval rules pertaining to the keeping of such...
    • shevy-java 4 hours ago
      Right - but it is called Oxford, not Horseford. I think names need to own up to themselves from a legal point of view. Oxford must allow for oxes everywhere.
      • diogolsq 4 hours ago
        Well, the name only points to the fact that there was a ford (a crossing) on the River Thames where oxen used to cross.

        Nothing suggests it would have been free — in fact, if I owned a ford (a shallow crossing point) running through my property, you can bet I would charge for it.

        • herodoturtle 2 hours ago
          An affordable fee I hope.
        • TRiG_Ireland 1 hour ago
          Except that it's called the Isis at that point, not the Thames.
      • iso1631 3 hours ago
        This legal argument has been tried many times in Penistone
    • Timwi 1 hour ago
      > You probably can take an ox to Oxford

      ... but you can't make him drink, is what I thought you were going to say.

  • fl7305 4 days ago
    > The order defines Class M1 vehicles as “those falling within class M1(a) and class M1(b) as specified in Schedule 1 of the Vehicle Classes Regulations, which refers to another bit of UK legislation.

    > Oxford’s congestion charge is almost certainly enforced by cameras that scan your number plate. An ox-drawn cart doesn’t have a number plate, so it won’t be charged. Other vehicles like a Renault Twizy or Reliant Robin do have number plates, so they’ll be charged even though they’re technically exempt.

    So there's not much to it: Plates are scanned -> the number is checked in the vehicle registration database -> not class M1(a) or class M1(b) -> no charge.

    This goes for ox carts, Twizys and Reliant Robins.

    • voidUpdate 5 hours ago
      But if a vehicle is required to have a number plate, and doesn't (potentially an ox-cart), then you won't be charged for the congestion charge, but you will get charged for something entirely different
    • swores 5 hours ago
      I get that the article is light hearted, but given how easy it is to confirm that yes cameras reading number plates is indeed how the system works, I don’t understand taking the time to write that article and not bothering to go further than guessing “almost certainly enforced by cameras that scan your number plate”.
  • orthoxerox 5 hours ago
    But can an ox still ford the Isis at Oxford?
    • BoxOfRain 4 hours ago
      As an Oxford native I'd advise that anyone attempting to do this checks Thames Water's sewage dumping schedule beforehand!
  • Gormanu 3 hours ago
    Oxford is heading straight back to the Middle Ages )) Soon we’ll have horse-drawn carriages at the city entrance (if they aren’t there already), shuttling people around instead of taxis. People still want to get from point A to point B quickly — that need isn’t going anywhere.
  • unangst 1 hour ago
    “motor vehicle” implies having a motor ;)
  • Pinus 3 hours ago
    Meanwhile, Cambridge has, or at least had a few years ago, at least one combined pedestrian/cattle tunnel (there was a fence down the middle!) under a major road.
  • WillAdams 1 hour ago
    Amusingly enough, a text by J.R.R. Tolkien, (Oxford Don who wrote some books which the _hoi polloi_ seem fascinated with) which decries the industrialization of Oxford has just been published:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/232514895-the-bovadium-f...

    which is a hoot, esp. when paired w/ his _Mr. Bliss_.

  • thomassmith65 4 hours ago
    The last time I was in Ireland, you'd still occasionally encounter a horse-drawn sulky on the roads. I've no idea if that is also the case in the UK, but a horse is more practical than an ox.
    • shevy-java 4 hours ago
      I can only speak of London - it is very rare to see oxes there. In fact, in my various visits to this city, I actually never saw an ox on the streets. In Oxford I would expect some, though. Oxford is in Oxfordshire - look how many ox-names there are. It's actually not so far away from London.
      • seanhunter 1 hour ago
        Can confirm. Used to commute daily through Oxford Circus in the centre of London for work and don’t recall seeing a single ox even there.

        Therefore since we know there are oxen and they are not in London (even in Oxford circus) they must be in Oxford.

    • cjs_ac 3 hours ago
      West Oxfordshire District Council is currently trying to find a way to stop a certain demographic from racing ponies and traps on the A40 dual carriageway.
      • EliteGadget 2 hours ago
        Calling them travellers and/or gypsies (I know they are technically different groups of people but generally the terms are often used interchangeably) is not in itself a slur.
        • cjs_ac 1 hour ago
          It's not a slur, but naming them in an online discussion usually provokes an unproductive shitfight about whether they're as bad as their reputation.
          • EliteGadget 29 minutes ago
            But almost anyone who lives in the UK would know who you were referring to.
          • TRiG_Ireland 1 hour ago
            And ostentatiously not naming them has a similar effect. You could have just said "people".
    • thunderbong 4 hours ago
      Clovelly in Cornwall still uses donkeys and sleighs

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovelly

  • troymc 2 hours ago
    I wonder about a Ford F-250 owned by an ox (an ox Ford).
  • tt_dev 5 days ago
    The person didn’t actually ride an ox cart anywhere.

    They looked at the law, saw “motor vehicle” and said that an ox cart doesn’t have a motor so should be fine.

    • tylerrobinson 4 days ago
      Must one personally be subject to a law in order to interpret it?
      • immibis 5 hours ago
        You must in order to know whether you can do something. The set of things you can do is rarely equal to the set of things the law says you can do.
  • shevy-java 4 hours ago
    There should be a legal right to this. After all it is part of the name: Oxford.
    • kitd 3 hours ago
      Careful. You'll make the residents of Cockermouth nervous.
  • Etheryte 4 hours ago
    The whole technically zero emissions bit is not really convincing. Cattle makes up a considerable part of global emissions, to the point that there are entire industries focused on bringing that down. Surely the same would apply here?
    • kitd 3 hours ago
      Not the only emissions too. Faecal emissions (sorry if you're having your lunch) are locally polluting and unhygenic. It's not often recorded the mass rejoicing when cars replaced horses in cities. No longer having to step over/round piles of sh*t was a major improvement in everyone's life.
      • iso1631 2 hours ago
        I remember some years ago waiting on my bike at some traffic lights behind a pair of police horses, which then proceeded to decorate the road in front of me with their emissions. No apologies from the officers, no attempt to clean it up. Disgusting stuff.

        Apparently it doesn't count at littering.

    • im3w1l 4 hours ago
      The thing is it depends on how you define your numbers. Personally I'm a fan of the carbon-above-ground accounting, where if you grow a tree it counts as 0 emissions, and if your burn the tree for fuel it also counts as 0 emissions since there wasn't any new carbon being dug up not was any carbon permanently sequestered.

      Giving credit for the tree and taking it away when it is burnt is another choice. It shifts the focus to short term effects over long term ones. Which has both pros and cons.

      • shevy-java 4 hours ago
        > if your burn the tree for fuel it also counts as 0 emissions since there wasn't any new carbon being dug up not was any carbon permanently sequestered.

        Ok but ... that definition makes not a whole lot of sense, right?

        The only thing that should be considered is CO2 in the atmosphere / troposphere.

        • iso1631 2 hours ago
          I think the idea is that the CO2 emitted from burning the tree is the same as is removed by the tree growing, so it cancels out. The tree is effectively a capacitor.

          Fairly irrelevant when it comes to cattle though, as it's the methane that's the problem there.

          • ErroneousBosh 1 hour ago
            You're going to get the methane anyway, even if you let all the plant matter the cows eat sit and rot.
            • JoeAltmaier 1 hour ago
              Eh. Except there's a huge industrial ag machine creating cow-food, that wouldn't be doing that without the cows.

              No, methane is a human-originated problem, and hand-waving won't change that.

              • rahimnathwani 33 minutes ago
                Right, but doesn't that industry capture carbon?
  • messe 3 hours ago
    Good luck making it drink.