Gamedev in Lisp. Part 2: Dungeons and Interfaces

(gitlab.com)

263 points | by awkravchuk 15 hours ago

15 comments

  • maxwelljoslyn 10 hours ago
    This is what all technical tutorials should look like. Well-composed and generally free of grammatical errors, spends just the right amount of time explaining each new topic as it is introduced, comes with full code samples, and includes visual samples of what the code does. Also, lengthy enough to treat the material in depth, while still being sufficiently self-contained that I can follow along -- without having read part 1 and without more than a few months of Common Lisp under my belt from a couple years back (tho I've done a decent amount of Clojure and Emacs Lisp.)

    Bravo, awkravchuk/Andrew :^)

    (Crossposted from https://mxjn.me/2024/10/17/1)

    • varjag 9 hours ago
      Seconded! Top notch longform programming material.
  • fredrikholm 14 hours ago
    Few (tech) things pull at the heart string more than great projects/articles about Common Lisp. Man what a treat!

    Read the first part when it came back, really excited to read this one. Kudos to the author!

    • awkravchuk 14 hours ago
      Thanks mate, I appreciate it :)
  • ertucetin 10 hours ago
    This is a very good read. I’m developing a multiplayer, third-person, spell-based shooter game using Lisp (ClojureScript). It’s a 3D web-based game. I’ll also be writing a blog post about my journey, including the tools and abstractions I created for the project. If you’re interested, here’s a demo link: https://wizardmasters.io
    • fire_lake 10 hours ago
      Jon Blow tried to make a game like this way back. It might be worth learning how/why it failed.
      • tines 10 hours ago
        Link to any video or anything on the subject?
        • adamrezich 9 hours ago
          Unless I'm mistaken, I think fire_lake might be referring to a wholly unrelated first-person RPG spellcasting game project wherein the player would draw glyphs with their mouse in order to cast spells, and then there would be a surprise later in the game based on this mechanic (which was later repurposed for The Witness).
  • mark_l_watson 12 hours ago
    Wow! Your package.sh and in general managing builds for three operating systems is a master class in itself - reading through the GitHub repo was a good learning experience.

    I usually build command line Common Lisp apps in SBCL or LispWorks, but I might do the next one in ECL because having builds for both macOS and Linux would be cool, and it would be fun to try something new.

    • awkravchuk 12 hours ago
      Oh thanks! I've been building that CI stuff on top of CL infrastructure for a few years now, and it constantly breaks :D
  • rtpg 2 hours ago
    Tiled is great. I really wish there was an SVG equivalent though. Inkscape is alright but custom data parameters are really annoying to deal with, and ultimately the tool is built around drawing things to paper.
  • dunefox 14 hours ago
    Nice, just this week I started developing a roguelike in Python, but Lisp might be cool as well.
  • xixixao 9 hours ago
    This is super solid, but the setup in Part 1 (CL itself, Python, C, lots of steps) I think is indicative of why CL is not super popular, especially with young programmers. Which is a shame. Would be awesome if someone felt like putting in the work to make the language more approachable (installation wise).
    • wwfn 6 hours ago
      This doesn't exactly get at it, but https://ciel-lang.org/ is at least attacking part of too-many-steps problem while focusing more on the too-many-choices and long in the tooth defaults (as I understand it).
  • 0xEF 11 hours ago
    I feel tricked. I came to learn to make a simple game, ended up learning tons about computing.

    Love it!

  • sourcepluck 14 hours ago
    I was only looking back over Part 1 yesterday! What timing!
  • davexunit 12 hours ago
    I didn't know that bit of history about A* and Lisp! All roads lead to Lisp, it seems.

    As mentioned at the end of the article, the next Lisp Game Jam starts next week on the 25th. Join in here: https://itch.io/jam/autumn-lisp-game-jam-2024

    • awkravchuk 12 hours ago
      I also learned it by chance while preparing the article :)
  • Guthur 13 hours ago
    The event loop is brilliant example for how much `loop` is a full blown iteration DSL... love it or hate it ;)
    • awkravchuk 13 hours ago
      I used to scoff at it at first, but after a few years of CL programming loop is one of my favourite CL constructs :)
      • taeric 13 hours ago
        I'm with you there. Is a bit of a mind bend, as I really disliked it the first few times I saw it.

        For an even sillier mind bend, I'm using tagbody to be able to directly transcribe some of Knuth's algorithms as I am learning them.

        • awkravchuk 13 hours ago
          Cool! Using tagbody feels like writing supercharged C or even assembler to me (not that I've used it much, but still).
        • CyberDildonics 13 hours ago
          I don't understand why turning a simple loop into a 'mindbend' is considered good. The downfall of programming is complexity, if you're getting your mind blown by a loop how are you going to do the rest of the program?
          • zelphirkalt 12 hours ago
            Something can be mindbending in its implementation, but offer a very convenient interface at the same time.

            If mindbending isn't relating to its usage, but to its implementation, then I could see, how it could still be a good thing.

            • exe34 12 hours ago
              mindbending can also refer to something being deceptively simple. you might think it would be a big complicated mess, but using this one weird trick makes it really obvious what's going on.
            • CyberDildonics 12 hours ago
              How does that relate to a simple loop construct though? Why would you want that to be mind bending in interface or implementation? Every other language makes it as simple as possible.
              • SatvikBeri 9 hours ago
                This isn't really true – you have languages like Odin that only have a for loop, no while loop, that only supports index-based iteration. Then you have languages like Python that let you loop over an arbitrary iterable, and define your own iterables. Some languages allow conditionals in loops, some don't. Some let you loop over multiple iterables, while some only take one at a time.

                Common Lisp happens to be on the upper end of what loop allows – you can use it as a standard for loop pretty easily, but the interface gives you many other options.

                • shawn_w 8 hours ago
                  And then there's Scheme, where there are no iterative loops; all looping is done with recursion. You can build pretty much everything other languages do with loops on top of that, though.
                  • groovy2shoes 2 hours ago
                    Not true. Scheme has `do`. See R7RS section 4.2.4 "Iteration".
                • medo-bear 9 hours ago
                  > Common Lisp happens to be on the upper end of what loop allows – you can use it as a standard for loop pretty easily, but the interface gives you many other options.

                  If you really wanna get freaky try 'do. It is the heroin addicted cousin of 'loop

                  https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_...

                  • shawn_w 8 hours ago
                    `do` is very straightforward and basic compared to the things that `loop` allows.
                    • medo-bear 5 hours ago
                      oh no. maybe you have in mind 'dolist or 'dotimes

                      'do is much more general and way more powerful. in some sense 'loop is the taming of 'do. see for example

                      https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lcl50/loop/loop-7.ht...

                      • shawn_w 5 hours ago
                        No, I mean do. It's basically just a C style for loop except with a return value. Nothing special.
                        • medo-bear 5 hours ago
                          yes the syntax for 'do is simple, like that of lisp. however 'do allows you to make far more complex iteration constructs than 'loop. 'loop is just a DSL to make some of these constructs more concise. read up on it
          • taeric 12 hours ago
            The mindbend was more of my approach to the construct. It began with disdain before even really using it much. Looking back, I really couldn't articulate what I disliked about it.
          • medo-bear 9 hours ago
            Simple minds loop simply
          • 0xdeadbeefbabe 12 hours ago
            He started with a bent mind though.
    • BoingBoomTschak 11 hours ago
      Why loop when you can https://iterate.common-lisp.dev/ instead? No s-expr-less alien syntax, no need for `do` to switch to back to Lisp syntax, normal `if`/`when` without the ugly `else`/`end` and generally useful features added.
      • shawn_w 8 hours ago
        If I used Common Lisp more I'd probably have a go at copying Racket's `for` forms[1]; they're really nice because you can usally tell at a glance what they're going to return - `for/list` returns a list for example. No having to scan the body for a `collect`.

        But in the meantime since discovering iterate I've barely used `loop`. It just feels so much more lispy and I find myself running to the documentation less often.

        [1]: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html

        • BoingBoomTschak 7 hours ago
          Interesting concept, but it visually has the same problem as loop IMO, using keywords to implement a new syntax instead of seamlessly blending with Lisp (at the cost of needing code walking, though).

          And it seems to lack all the iterations drivers (incl. builtin destructuring) that make half of loop/iterate's usefulness and "reads like English" comfy factor; especially liking

            (for (i j) on list [by #'cddr])
            (for i initially init-expr then then-expr)
            (for prev previous i [initially init-expr])
            (for i in-{file,stream} [using #'reader])
          
          The two lasts are iterate goodies and I often use the last with these custom readers: https://git.sr.ht/~q3cpma/cl-utils/tree/master/item/src/read...
          • shawn_w 6 hours ago
            Racket splits up the iteration forms from what to iterate over (sequences[1]). You can compose different sequence constructors together, or make brand new ones, without introducing new syntax.

            It has limited destructuring - sequences can return multiple values, all of which can be bound. There's an adapter to convert one that does that into returning a single list, but not the other way around. If there was it could be used with `in-slice` to be equivalent to your first example.

            I could probably write a new sequence to get the `previous` behavior; don't think `initially ... then` is possible.

            Lots of sequences for reading from open ports (the Racket/Scheme name for CL streams)... `(for ([i (in-port)]) ...)` for example (with an optional reader argument defaulting to `read`).

            [1]: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/sequences.html

      • Jtsummers 10 hours ago
        Have they fixed the problem in Iterate yet where it breaks any uses of the built-in count function?
        • BoingBoomTschak 9 hours ago
          Sadly no. Biggest bug in there, "fortunately". Easy to patch, though.
  • zelphirkalt 13 hours ago
    I like the SICP references.
  • edem 9 hours ago
    This reminds me of "Caves of Clojure": https://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/07/caves-of-clojure-01/
  • the_gorilla 13 hours ago
    [dead]